Epik announced forever registrations, a registration where you can secure a domain name in perpetuity.
.COM can be secured at Epik.com for the one-time, all-inclusive fee of $420 regardless of where a domain is presently registered. Eligible forever registrations at Epik include free privacy protection, theft protection, forwarding services and unlimited subdomains all at no additional cost.
Here is a video from the latest ICANN meeting with Rob Monster discussing forever domains.
No, not for $420
That is 50 years of renewals.
10 year renewal periods are just fine at a total of $85.
No. I would like to sell every domain I have, for the most value and for the least time, and repeat it again.
Two thoughts here:
Obviously, this is a solution mainly geared at retail users of domains, not wholesale speculators. On the other hand, it is not a bad option for a premium domain, no different than landscaping a million dollar home or upgrading the kitchen and bath before you list it. Think about the curb appeal of “Buy 123.com” or “Own 123.com Forever”. The latter sounds better to me but I am biased.
The second reason why this matters is for the domain investors. We saw Uniregistry increase prices by 30X on .HOSTING. With prodding they grandfathered old domains to the old price. However, this did reveal an Achilles Heel which is that there is open-ended liability when it comes to future price increases by registries. I think that needs to be fixed and am taking the initiative to work with industry stakeholders to shift the retail market from Leasehold to Freehold.
And if a customer is going to lease a domain, let them lease it from a domainer, not the registry. This is the reason why Epik is also #1 for Domain Leasing. These two features work together. Buy a great non pigeon-poop (hat tip Rick Schwartz) domain, plan to own it forever, but then lease it to an end-user who will eventually buy it. This is now a proven model.
Of course folks can still try to flip (dropping) domains. Yet my sense is that the window for that business model is closing as dropcatchers get wiped out one by one and as dropcatchers become principal holders of domains rather than running auctions with a shrinking pool of wholesale and cash-poor buyers. The sustainable market is retail and after-market. The wholesale market is weak and dying. The domainers who are focused on wholesale are gasping for air. Adapt or die.
Rob…the economics of “Forever” or “Lifetime” anything is an interesting study. I hand reg’d 10 “Forever” and “Lifetime” domains for the carwash industry, the airfare industry, the cab industry, the health club industry and a few generic “clubs” and “fare(s)” domains. I even called a buddy of mine who is past president of the International Carwash Association who is doing some research for me. I tend to think there’s a lot more money in Forever Carwashes and Airfares than there is in “forever domain registrations”. But then again, what do I know?
Forever is a long time. Things could happen to the prices, the company could go under, etc.
For the company is is collecting income now for future services rendered; decades down the road.
I don’t really see the value added to the consumer personally.
I certainly don’t have faith giving money to a company for a service or product decades away, unless they take EpikBucks as payment. 🙂
Brad
It isn’t an offer to own the domain forever.
It is an offer for the company to act on your behalf in regards to maintaining future registrations.
The flaw in this is that it requires an ever growing number of clients to maintain these registrations as you close in on the 50 year registration mark (assuming costs don’t go up)
This sounds like a pyramid/ponzi scheme.
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You would be better of registering for 10 years and renew every year after that.
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The only way a “forever registration” could work and be assured of its legality, would be if there was an agreement with the registry/ICANN locking the domain ownership so no more fees applied.
I don’t see the end game here, the margin sucks, what if prices go up, and company goes bell up, makes no sense. What is the new angle here?
Some of you have been around for a long time, e.g. Brad. However, I will run the math for you to show you that most registrars with established BRANDS will end up offering this option and would be fiscally responsible for doing so. In fact, I think not offering this product will be suicide since the cash economics are a no-brainer and more conservative than meets the casual eye. As I want the industry to be healthy, I will share openly and it will become obvious why others will follow Epik’s lead.
The retail Forever .COM price is $420. We can discount it in bulk but that is the price. After payment processing of 3% we have $407. We then incur $8.10 per year for 10 years, including ICANN fee, which is another $81, leaving $326 in working capital. Easy so far. Now a healthy registrar might have a Weighted Average Cost of Capital of say 6% (GDDY is 6.51%). So as long as a .COM is $19.50 or less per year, the .COM is actually self-financing into perpetuity without even spending the $326 on deposit.
So, yes, Godaddy will do it. Their finance people are bright people and their management loves cashflow and monopolists naturally gravitate towards defensive moat. And once Godaddy offers it, and I am confident that they will, every registrar with an established retail brand will follow. I ran the numbers and decided to go first not waiting for ICANN to agree to formally vote for a capped $10 fee. Why? Because the underwriting risk here is negligible for the foreseeable future and I have a 10 year view of the horizon by always pre-paying the maximum 10 years.
So, what happens when GoDaddy follows Epik’s example? I predict we will see something along the following lines:
1. By mid-2019, GoDaddy offers a Forever domain product. With let’s say 60 million domains under management and 5% conversion within 1 year, they would have at least an incremental $979 million in free cash flow. For a company with a market cap of $12 billion and an enterprise value of $13.5 billion, let’s agree that we are talking about serious money even for the industry leading company.
2. Now let’s say that they take half of that nominally $1 billion in cash and do stock buybacks and drive the enterprise value from say $13.5 billion to say $20 billion while moving up the value chain for their overwhelmingly retail customer base. Most stock analysts will see the spike in FCF and not check where it came from and besides Forever penetration will not cap out at 5%. Plus a forever customer is a great customer.
3. Now let’s say that take the other $500 million in Free Cash Flow and take out any registrar that is competing too aggressively on price and has scale. Companies like NameCheap, NameSilo have scale but are a nuisance. Tucows with a market cap of $500 million and an eccentric but lovable Founder and a lackluster Open SRS platform can either be acquired or out-marketed would be a good example. Keep buying for as long as Trump is POTUS because there will be no meaningful antitrust action.
4. Push gross margins from currently 66% to 72 or even 75%, further improving operating cashflow. In order to take domain margins higher. You have to become a registry and so it will be interesting to see if GoDaddy begins acquiring registries. Once the cash machine is spinning, much goodness flows. If Forever registrations become common as I believe they will, the new registries are very interesting. Nobody wants to do a consultative sale or affiliate marketing for a $5 domain registration. However, a $500 or $5000 one-off domain sale is a different story. The industry will have no shortage of commission-based sales people happily selling that product from remote offices all day long.
Rob,
no one here says forever registrations are a bad business move for Epik. And I agree that other registrars will likely follow suit. But for a domain registrant, irregardless of whether is an investor or an end user, paying now for a service that is 30-40-50 years away is frankly ridiculous and imho doesn’t make any sense. Especially when you can already register for 10 years and renew every year thereafter.
As a domain investor myself, providing cash flow to a registrar so it can buy back stocks or acquire competitors is not at the top of my priorities.
As a matter of fact, that would also provide registrars active in the secondary market like Godaddy, Uniregistry and Epik itself more cash to compete against its customers, which is already not ideal.
For these reasons, I hope you are wrong and domain buyers see the scheme for what it is, ie a way for a registrar to raise money at a very convenient rate.
You are absolutely right and that is why a forever domain would be so great for these guys, they would go on a buying spree. Taryn would be on roids on NameJet, as if he already isn’t.
It makes perfect sense to be honest, it is all about I marketing, and the domainer is not the target market for a forver domain.
Ponzi scheme
As someone who earns my surname in the .com, this is interesting for sure.
*owns not earns!
I WOULD PAY FOR PREMIUM DOMAINS ONLY, & TO THE REGISTRY DIRECTLY ONLY, NOT TO 3RD PARTY. WHAT IF THIS COMPANY GOES BANKRUPT.
Does not make any sense unless registry accepts the “forever” payment. Rob is an interesting guy. I guess he is trying to forget his failure in smart city sh*t. I am not sure how he finds stupid ideas and more than that, find people believing in those ideas, in a regular basis. Thats his only success.
TRUE. IF PREMIUM NAME GOES EXPIRED. THE REGISTRY DOES NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY & THE OWNER OF THE DOMAIN NAME IS FU**ED.
What makes anyone think they will be better at keeping up the renewals? What if they are bad at administration of the service, or if there is an oversight?
Will Rob or Epik compensate 100% of the true value of the domain and lost profits if it is not renewed and you lose it?
What stops him from offering lifetime free registration but eventually charging you $100 a year per domain, for example, to be part of the “Epik Club” ? There’s nothing stopping him from adding on some kind of be like credit cards type of fee for membership renewal.
What if he sells the registrar to company in some unaccountable regime like China or Afghanistan? Will you terms still be honored?
The same scary reasons Rob mentions about Uniregistry can be replicated in different ways withe Epik. You are better off keeping your domains at a registrar that is publicly traded and has to answer to its investors.
Thing is, unless you are talking about a very small amount of domains, if you go with this program you are investing in Epik and our now married to them. No more putting your domains around wherever you want and, do you think any other registrar will never honor any of this? Of course not. 10 years max is what they’ll honor, so if Epik goes under or whatever, so does the majority of your money it appears.
420 ? Curious number…..hmmmmm. Puff, puff, pass .
Interesting, people are now fighting over pennies, this industry is getting tight.
Rob Monster is a pioneer, a true visionary!
Wow, what a great idea!
truly, inspired
The spammer moves into scamming.
first to the trough ugliness, go figure
Sign me up, I can ask more for my LLL.com with forever status!
Epik will probably be sold within the next 5 years or buyout competitors.
No telling what will happen to your domains if this happens.
Pass
THE REASON THEY ARE STARTING THIS OPTION SO PEOPLE WILL NOT LET BAD NAMES EXPIRE. SO THEY WILL BE STUCK WITH THE NAMES FOR EVER. MY THEORY IS IF I DON’T SELL MY NAME WITHIN TEN YEARS, I LET IT GO TO POOR GUY TO REGISTER. I HAVE GIVEN SO MANY PREMIUM DOMAINS TO OTHERS WHO MADE MILLIONS BY SELLING THEM LATER.
Good point, but I wouldn’t say this is the only reason they are starting this option. This benefits Epik in multiple ways. I really don’t see any benefit to the customer.
If that $420 would go to the registry instead of the registrar, and the registry would in exchange lift any future fees for the domain, regardless on what registrar it is currently registered, then this would be a sweet deal for super premium domains. You could basically sell a domain and tell the buyer that he won’t ever have to pay any more fees from this point on, even if he transfers the domain out to another registrar. The value of the domain would definitely go up this way.
Paying $420 at registrar level however is nothing more than a “service” (the registrar renews the domain for you, year after year) and that “service” already exists, it’s called auto-renewal.
GOOD POINT. THE NEW OWNER SHOULD NOT PAY FEES EITHER FOR LIFE SO YOU CAN EASILY SELL YOOUR DOMAINS. THIS IS REAL DEAL.
The Forever renewal product is mainly a retail product. It is more than a proxy auto-renew service. It is a commitment to protect the registrant’s intellectual property. This product does not exist elsewhere in the industry and yet it deserves to exist for those who need it and value it, as described in a few of the case studies of actual customers among the ~1000 Forever registrations at Epik to date.
There are some good questions being raised about future governance and fiscal controls to make sure that customers don’t get left holding a drippy bag. That certainly would not pass any “do unto others” test. I just spent much of the last hour talking with Mike Berkens who was kind enough to call. He had some great input and I look forward to continuing that discussion in the broad context of stewardship.
As for the specific issue of counter-party risk with registries, this is where the heavy lifting is happening. We are negotiating with the registries and with ICANN for the outright freehold registration. As these services get negotiated, our price grid will distinguish between a true “Freehold” and “Managed Leasehold”. Both scenarios are Forever, but the former has essentially no counter-party risk.
For anyone who wants to read the fine print on Forever Domains, the TOS are here:
https://www.epik.com/forever.php
To the extent that they have not already, registrars and registries that want to get on Board with this movement, can reach out to me directly at 425-765-0077 or rob@epik.com.
Rob…the whole concept of “forever” or “lifetime” anything is a very interesting topic. While Forever Domains may work for some, my experience with purchasing a lifetime of golf or forever golf has been one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done.
Based on the theory of unintended consequences, incredibly your idea stirred up more forever business ideas than I can count. Rob…I have a similar business background as you, and when you think of the economic potential for “forever” business models, it absolutely blows the mind. Thanks for starting this, and I wish you all the best☺
EVERY REGISTRY SHOULD GIVE OPTION THAT IF YOU PAY FOR TEN YEARS, YOU GET 50% DISCOUNT. SO WE CAN PAY FOR TEN YEARS AT A TIME FOR PREMIUM DOMAINS ONLY. POOR PEOPLE ARE WORKING HARD , SAVING MONEY & PAYING FOR DOMAINS EACH YEAR, BUT THEY ARE NOT SELLING THEM. I HAVE BEEN PAYING FOR DOMAINS SINCE 1997.
I BOUGHT LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP WHEN NEW “THE MEN’S CLUB” OPENED IN CHARLOTTE NORTH CAROLINA IN 1997. THE MEMBERSHIP WAS $1000. AT THE TIME, I THOUGHT IT MIGHT NOT BE WORTH IT …. IT WAS WELL WORTH IT. I HAVE BEEN GOING TO MEN’S CLUB FOR 21 YEARS, AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK. THAT SAVES ME $15 PER PERSON ENTRY FEE, PLUS FREE BUFFET FOR UPTO 5 OF MY GUESTS. SO I CALCULATED ONE DAY HOW MUCH MONEY I SAVED …. I SAVED ABOUT $50,000 IN 21 YEARS PLUS MY FRIENDS. PLUS, I MET THOUSANDS OF BEAUTIFUL GIRLS.
Naeem….i live in Va. Beach about a six hour ride from you. I’ve had several experiences similar to yours. I posted on another board that I own a Lifetime membership to a golf and country club that’s just five minutes from my house. I paid $30K for it about 14 years ago, and at the time I was paying about $325 a month. The dues today are now $425 a month, and I pay “zero”. I also get 24 guest rounds for my guests each year saving me $50 each time I have a guest. It’s without a doubt one of the best investments I’ve ever made, especially since I plan on living a lot longer. I’ve already saved 65K in dues I would have paid over the last 14 years. I also had a similar experience at the gym where I’ve been working that’s actually owned by the city of Virginia Beach. My wife and I pay no due there as well, and when we were paying dues it was just $80 a year. It was so cheap I use to give memberships to about a hundred employees I had as a benefit.
Finally, the best thing that’s come out of this for me is that I’ve hand registered about a dozen “forever” and “lifetime” domains like LifetimeHealthClub(.)com for sale or development. Robs “forever registrations” aren’t for me, and I think he already recognized they’re not for domain investors like us. I wish him the very best, and thank him for bringing up the idea from which I intend to profit☺
Update here.
The .TUBE registry has just agreed to $219 Forever renewals for GA names.
For example, someone can buy ExtremeSports.Tube at Epik today for $219.
In general, the registry-authorized Forever domain renewal deals are getting done post ICANN. It will take time for this to become common with all of the ccTLDs. Negotiation of the one-off ICANN fee, e.g. $10, is going to take more time to navigate the stakeholder group dialog but the emerging consensus is that this makes sense. With ccTLDs there is no ICANN fee so that may actually go faster. In other words, the gTLD registries would be extremely foolish to be a late adopter for this movement.
We registered Forever.Domains to make it easy to direct navigate to the related page.
Also, there is an affiliate program that pays out 20% for an initial customer sale. So, there is a nice affiliate opportunity to direct people to buy their Forever domains at Epik, e.g. 20% on a $420 sale is an easy $84 and that is for just a single domain. It works with both registrations and transfer. We built a nice update to the interface which makes it easy to upgrade an incoming transfer to Forever. There are some support articles for setting up an affiliate account at Epik here:
https://www.epik.com/support/?s=affiliate&post_type%5B%5D=st_kb
No model ever dies in this business. They all come back like zombies.
2004: Network Solutions launches the “100 year domain registration”. There’s still a zombie page at NetSol for that: https://www.networksolutions.com/domain-name-registration/popup-100-yr-term.jsp
It’s heartening to think that when the sun eventually becomes a red giant and engulfs the earth, that I won’t need to worry about renewing my domain name.
The walking dead