So there have been some good discussions about old timers and how they would do today, or if they are still relevant?
An article I wrote on TLDinvestors got a lot of engagement both on the blog and on Namepros.
A lot of the comments focused on Rick, some gave great praise, others went the other way with a gem like this:
These days Rick is more out of touch with the domain industry than Morgan. His opinion on something like this is worthless.
All Rick knows how to do is say “no” to $100k offers on domains worth $1 million dollars. Real hard (sarcasm). Has he sold any of the hundreds of domains he’s purchased in the last 5 years? NO, he has NOT.
He’s desperately trying to stay relevant at the sacrifice of competence.
Someone else stated:
NO!!!
Neither schwartz, berkens or schilling ever put a dime in my pocket.
On the flipside commenter JZ posted something that a couple of old timers mentioned to me and thought was post worthy.
Todays domainers are spoiled rotten with so much info out there. When Rick and guys like him started there was nothing. No drop lists, no “industry” to speak of. Do they understand what younger domainers have to go through? Probably not but they paved the road.
So how would the new breed that is dependent on technology have done in the early days?
There would be little to no discussion, no drop lists, no parking or domaining.com.
There was less liquidity back in the day and most people kept their secrets to themselves.
Today people seem to need things to happen faster, patience seems to have become a lost skill.
An article on QZ.com stated, Neuroscience confirms that to be truly happy, you will always need something more.
For domain investors that something more would be domain sales.
But Rick Schwartz had to not seek those sales in the old days, he had to turn down several offers for a name like eBet.com before he got to $1,350,000 in 2013. In a world of YOLO (You only live once) many newer investors might have said, “I paid $100 to reg this name, $20,000 sounds great!”
A lot of people today play the volume game that would not have been practical back at the beginning of domaining.
Both era’s have their pros and cons. It’s interesting to think of things in reverse to balance out the conversation.
How would new guys have done back in the day? I wish I was back in the day, all this new info available is great but the very fact things have evolved the atmosphere is very competitive now and unless we see another 2007-8 bust the decent op. are long gone. Unproven extensions labeled premium, over bidding on drops and so on… ya wonder times we are in lol
Buying .Com domains today is like buying Bitcoin at 2018 prices.
Buying .Com domains in the 1990’s was like buying Bitcoin at 2009 prices.
IMO, these domains were lying there unregistered before the early investors went and registered them, the pioneers, the early prospectors in the Wild West with lots of unknowns, with no idea if it was gold or fool’s gold but just the gut feeling that this might be the biggest thing, the internet and thereby the domains.. The opportunity was available to millions of people at the time, including someone like me who was in tech in the 90s, but did not make use of the opportunity, because we just did not know. As someone pointed out, they paved the way, before these road maps came into being.Also, without the handouts we have available now, what prompted them to choose say insurance.com or property.com and not ahkffhfhf.com? That factor which enabled them make those wise “picks” is what made them the money and none can grudge that fact. It was NOT easy then and perhaps not easy now either but at least we know what we are into.
the domain name invrstors of yesteryear had
The ability to guess future business trends
They knew they had to have patience and lots of it
And a long term investing strategy
But as,rick is mentioned
Rick had the skills to close a sale and won’t have lost that skill to negotiate a sale and an understanding of the type of domains that business’s be able to spend big on if the domain was the very best money could buy
Skills that even today few domain investors have
If there was a thread entitled
Domain broker available
How many domain investors would be on that list?
Most of us
One name that wouldnt be on the list is rick
Because he can sell his way to profit and add liquidity to his portfolio all day long
Few domainers will ever get to be as good as rick
Some of the new breeds lack patience.They accept every offer when they could hace held on to get the maximum.All you hear is “profit is profit.Stay away from the jealous ones who blame those who were there before them and saw a vision to hold their names and demand for its value.Rick doesnt need anyone telling him how long to hold his name .But when he makes a sale ,mouths are wide open . He is someone i like his domain sales pattern.Domaining is a patience game and most nee generation domainers think its possible to build a mansion in one week.
The same situation will happen in 10 years from now people will say “remember I could of bought that domain name for 50k”. Amazing deals right now from 5k to 10k. The barrier is just higher now nothing else has changed. 5 years ago no one was talking about crypto domains, security tokens, utility tokens, chain domains etc. Look at those values now. Also telling multi-millionaires that they could not make it today in this business is just silly. You could give these guys 100 names and they will pick out the best 2 names. Give new domainers that scenario today and they will give you back 10 names that end in silly .whatever names. BIG Difference.
we haven’t started to see domain name values soar yet
The domain name industry is like the car industry
The likes of rick bought the equivalent of the first cars and we are 20 odd years in to the car industry with another century at least to go
Think like that and hold your quality domains especially one and two keyword .coms for many years to come and you’ll make more money than you ever dreamed was possible because back then google wasnt even heard of and high streets were flourishing etc years down the road google is high st and will still be in decades to come but there is only so much internet land available eg domain names etc
And decades down the road bods will still be talking keywords in to google to find websites and due to lack of keyword .com domain names available the values of two keyword dot coms will soar as will 5L .com brandables etc as there is only so many that make sense amd tol many people that want to buy them
Do younger domain investors realize in late 90s you could only register domains at Network Solutions, and if you didn’t supply an IP address each domain cost $120 (2 yrs registration)?
Vast majority of the newer business models would not have succeeded because there was little to no aftermarket demand. You had to have big bucks as well to buy a portfolio of .coms.
Also there was no such law against registering trademarks. It was a grey area dependant upon the mark holder. As a 23 yr old kid there was no content online discussing these issues. It might seem like common sense but back then it wasn’t. If you wanted to sell Nike gear online register NikeGear.com, Nike wasn’t selling their gear online back then.
I wasted $7K (profits from Internet stocks) registering TM domains when I started because there was no law against, nor could you be sued for cybersquatting. Network Solutions actually encouraged me to buy TM domains over the phone in early 1999. It wasn’t until a manager at NS finally told me I was wasting my money which prompted me to visit an IP attorney.
Only then did I realize one had to register generic domains, and by then all good one word and many two word domains were already bulk registered by guys like Mike Mann in the hosting business.
I would never survive with todays short term thinking and concentration on flips. That being said, I was always a long term investor and have most of my 1999 hand registered domains. Didn’t buy on aftermarket until 2008-09 crash. Bought and held them, too. Still not selling.
There is a big difference between long term domain investing and short term flips. The latter isn’t worth my time, never has been. But I do respect those that have the hustle to do it. Just not my domain investment model and never has been. Good luck to all.
It’s really interesting all the information you shared. Thanks.
I agree, hold your names forever because we live forever and you can spend the money then and enjoy your life… in the future.
Sorry but you need balance, yes you can hold some, sell some, live now and prepare for the future all at the same time.
In other business dealings I have met many 60-80+ year old men and women who have said to me their wealth means little now because they no longer have their youth. They would gladly trade most of it to enjoy their youth more, so sell a name, enjoy your youth, getting older every minute.
Not sure what you’re talking about Josh. My domain investments are just one diversifying asset class. Why should I sell when I don’t have to? Id rather sell my rental beach house in Florida as I don’t think it will appreciate in value as much as my domains.
If you understand what is happening with blockchain you will realize that not far down the road fractional ownership of domains will cause domain values to rise a lot further. For us “old timers” (and Im 42 yrs old) this is what we have been holding for all of these years.
I’ve travelled to 75+ countries, so yes agree that you need to enjoy your youth. How that dictates to selling domain assets I have no idea.
“Domainers” always say you have to sell some. Reckon because they need the money for cash flow because this is what they do for a living. I don’t, and think its very bad blanket advice to new domain investors. You guys should change your understanding of how to invest. The wealthiest investors in the world (Buffett, Carlos Slim, etc) are not daytraders. They are very long term investors that hold as long as the fundemantals have not changed.
And the fundementals of premium .coms have not changed. If anything fundamentals have strengthened signficantly over last year. Therefore, I have made the correct decision to not sell when others were forced to sell at 80-90% discounts after the crash of 2008-09. You buy undervalued assets and hold. That is how you make big money. Not flipping, regardless of the asset class.
Seems more like “hating” on the players that have collected great domains over time, and now that the music has stopped in this musical game of chairs they don’t have the money to buy the oceanfront property. Perhaps the same could be said for some cryptos. But you don’t see me hating on them. Wish all investors the best of luck without telling them how to live their lives.
Good insight and advice RP.
What your are essentially saying is you don’t need the money, so you don’t need to sell. Great for you but most “domainers” are not wealthy and even many who own tens of thousands of “good” names are cash poor. The average domainer is living sale to sale basically hoping for “the big one” or that values will rapidly increase in the (near) future. Regardless, if you need the money or not how much enjoyment will you get out of it waiting until you are 60-80 to sell?
I don’t wait to sell. I built my wealth developing my domains. Took about five years to breakout. I had revenue (and profit) stream that subsequently allowed me to acquire many domains originally registered in 1996.
I now have kids that are 8 and 5. If we don’t develop together they will inherit. Just like any asset passed onto future generations.
For some reason younger people don’t seem to understand that older people have children and would like to pass down valuable assets to them. Stock portfolios, real estate, domains, precious metals. Why would I sell my domains instead of handing them down to my kids?
The music has stopped. Premium .coms are simply not affordable to people living day to day just like oceanfront property is not affordable to those living paycheck to paycheck.
Blockchain will allow fractional investment but will drive prices significantly higher.
End of day it’s called capitalism. Ive learned, and continue to learn, from my elders who have been there before. You can’t expect to build wealth when your business model depends upon selling your best assets. Replacement costs eventually erode margins and price you out.
Just trying to pass down what was taught to me directly by men far wiser than any of us. They have billions and hundreds of millions to show for it.
Because them old men are rich doesn’t mean they are wiser. Many are corrupt and some just got lucky.
There are many who don’t believe domains are here to stay, certainly don’t see them as stock in a Fortune 500, real property or gold and silver.
I am about the same age as you, a few years younger and I have kids as well. It would be nice to leave something for them but will they appreciate it? Understand it? Care at all? Or just sell cheaply to get cash?
I know of a few families where their father worked hard to build up a business, passed and left it to their sons only for the son to sell as quick as possible and blow the money on travel and drugs. I think about the idea of handing down my domains or whatever it might be in the future but I don’t know if it will be for them or if they will want to travel their own path. They may have no interest at all.
Personally I got into domains because I didn’t like developing. Its how I started out but I much rather enjoyed tracking down domains and buying them rather than either trying to develop yourself or hiring someone to do it because I personally don’t have the skills to make impressive looking websites.
For domains, I deal in volume basically. I have about 2000 great domains I hold onto while having 20k others to sell for as much as I can get.
@VR – I said “far wiser”, not “old”. Yes many wealthy are corrupt but not the guys I worked with.
Michael Rubin is only 45 and just sold $1B stake in Fanatics to Softbank at $4.5B valuation. Michael didn’t get lucky, works harder than anyone I’ve met. Sold his former company GSIC to eBay for $3.3B. And I’ve been listening to .com won’t be here to stay for about 20 years now. Back then “RealNames” were supposed to make them irrelevant. 10 years later Apps were supposed to make domains irrelevant. 5 years ago new Gs were supposed to make .com undesirable. Consumer behavior, especially global, doesn’t just change. Think for yourself, not what other “experts” tell you. I ran the marketing department for a billion dollar company. Gives you a different perspective.
@CMAC – Kids are tough. I put vast majority of time nowadays educating them. My eldest (turning 8 in 4 days!) is billingual, 2 grades ahead in math, and quite a ball player. My youngest is sharper than my eldest. I don’t leave it up to the school system, private or public, to do their job. If you want something done right Ive learned Ive got to do it myself. Personally I didn’t like tracking down domains. I enjoy building something of value to consumers.
@RP
There is no right or wrong just what’s right for you, circumstances dictate.
Your advice can work if the situation allows, otherwise its as good as mine and like any opinion, we all have one.
Care to share some of your better premium 1996 domains?
Ive never done this before but reckon there aren’t many reading this thread at this juncture. Depends what kind of domains you like, will give you a taste just to show Im not a bullshitter:
Outstanding.com is pretty good. Super and Great went for about $1M each.
If you like jewelry… DiamondRings.com, DiamondEarrings.com, GoldWatches.com, GoldRings.com, etc. Own about 90% jewelry product domains. $90B annual, global business that will only grow over time.
If you like man’s best friend I got something for you as well. Labradors.com, GoldenRetrievers.com, Beagles.com to name a few.
If you fancy sports than MyFootball.com, MyBasketball.com, MyBaseball.com, MyHockey.com, etc but those were hand regged in 1999.
Not sure if 904.com was registered in 1996 but that used to be my area code so I bought it off a domain newsletter when nobody else wanted it.
This portfolio came from buying and holding over a 20 year time frame. Im not sure what kind of portfolios are out there solely based upon buying/selling domains for a living. I like the quality of my domains but maybe others don’t. To each their own. Just trying to share and educate for those who are new to domain investing to show them that the domainer addage “you must sell some” isn’t necessarily the best path for all investors.
Really nice group there, you are BS free 😉
People did just as badly back in day!
Most people registered worthless garbage.
Most people said all the good names were gone.
Most people said they had no chance of competing on the drops.
Just a few points if I may.
1. There was no aftermarket in 1995 or 1996. I and a literal handful of folks were the entire aftermarket that started in 1996 and 1997.
2. In 1995 very few people were online. Only 10% of businesses were online and many of them with just a holding page.
3. In 1995 not everyone had their own personal computer.
4. The average person had no idea what a domain name was.
5. Most businesses did not know what a domain name was.
6. There were no parking companies to monetize your traffic.
7. Many people did not believe there was such a thing as type in traffic and would refuse to pay even tho they made sales and money.
8. I was working in the blind. I had no technical experience. I had not even learned to cut and paste or FTP. What I had was a keen sense of business and understand that the adult world is consistently first in adopting new technology.
9. It cost $39.95/month to activate EACH domain name
10. Domains cost $100 per pop for 2 years after being totally FREE. I completely missed the FREE. So I got in too late RIGHT??
11. Since I was looking at 20 years before I would see great value, each domain was really $10,000.
12. There were NO TOOLS whatsoever.
13. Many of the folks that were domaining at the time and earlier bought domains that had no value. I had a different focus. They were techies. I was a businessman. I was a salesman. I was a marketing guy. I was a student of business and industry and the history of both.
14. I was a loner. Nobody understood what I was doing. I was just a fool according to them. There was nobody to reinforce what I was doing was not insane and might work. There was no support system.
15. There were no domain blogs. There were no chatrooms other than the one I opened in 2000. RicksBoard. That was the epicenter of a fledging industry.
16. There was no Google, no Facebook, no Twitter.
17. Online banking had just begun.
18. We did not have smart phones.
19. You could not get email on the phone until the Motorola Startac
20. I did not have a CLUE which way things would turn out. I had a hunch that I based on an assumption and took a RISK looking for a big reward. I KNEW it would take years if not decades for this to evolve.
I am sure I missed a few. But the point is, when you get on the merry-go-round of life and business, there is NO STARTING LINE!! Only FOOLS and IDIOTS think that way. If I were to have thought that way after domains were FREE just a few weeks before, I would not be writing this post today. I have no sympathy for those that wallow in self pity and only take shots to excuse their own very visible short-commings.
There are domains of value every single day of the week available. I NEVER EVER buy a domain trying to resell it the next day. As many have mentioned, have some patience! And as far as valuations go, the ONLY valuation that counts is YOURS! YOU are the only one that can pull the trigger on a sale. YOU are the only one that can determine your circumstance. And yeah, I get that you need to pay bills. But you can build a machine that stays WAY ahead of the steamroller if you work smart and not deal with that CIRCUMSTANCE!
There has been some great advice given here by many folks. They KNOW what they are talking about. Don’t argue with them. They are right, you are wrong. You need to rise to their level, they don’t need to come down to yours. We have all been there before as we climbed the ladder and WE know the difference.
Just remember, the smarter and harder you work, the luckier you will get.
“Luck is a residue of Hard Work.” Branch Rickey.
Don’t know who Branch Rickey is? Look him up. History is the #1 part of business. success imho.
Good luck and great fortune to all!
I think Rick S. and Frank S. are the kings of the old timers who worked with their own money to turn a profit.
I think Mike M. is a king among old timers who works with his own and borrowed money but I’m not sure he turns a profit.
I think Andrew R. is the king of the new timers working with his own and other people’s money.
I almost certainly would have regged some of the best, it’s as simple as that, even at $100 a pop. In fact, I would probably have done it prior to 1995 if I had only bought a computer when I was thinking about it and a close relative told me to just get one when I was talking about it around 1990.
Rick Schwartz is out of touch with domaining?
Rick Schwartz wrote the book on domain names.
He has been so right for so many years that, I think, the challenge just isn’t there for him, any more.
He has conquered the mountain and exhaustively schooled those that would listen and now, I think he is focused on the Blockchain.
I am no kiss ass, but Rick Schwartz has to be respected for who he is. The King, truly.
His peers? Berkens, Fisher, Mann, Ham, Cahn, Schilling.. Pretty heady group of millionaires and Schwartz leads them all.
Over
Robert, there are a handful of others you have perhaps never heard of who likely wish to stay silent and behind the scene. If they wished to be public then you would really see who the leader(s) are in terms of dollars and cents. If based purely on being vocal, yes Rick wins.
That’s very true. There a number of very successful domainers, much more than me, that have remained 100% private. They have reaped the benefits from me being vocal without putting themselves out there for public ridicule and all the other garbage that comes with it. And that is fine. I have no issues with that. Smart choice!
My choice was to try and expedite things. Time was of the essence. Educate and raise the prices because of what a great domain represents. Did not want it to take 50 years. We don’t live forever.
“They have reaped the benefits from me being vocal without putting themselves out there…”
Haha Rick it’s 2018 and you can never let a moment pass without patting yourself on the back. “Even the secretive domainers who aren’t loudmouths owe me a debt of gratitude!” Rick, please just go away. Have some grace, let age soften you, let others take the reins. The fact that this impulse still isn’t in you says something about you. Let your money talk, let your deals talk. There isn’t anything you can say that you haven’t said 40,000 times before. At this point, you’re like a hectoring old man who can’t let go. Most of us have had well enough of you.