As ICANN gathers this week for its meeting in San Francisco, the major issue will be once again be trademarks.
Trademarks are the hot topic of discussion because of the new gTLD’s and the Government Advisory Council (GAC), which at the urging of trademark groups want additional protections for trademark holders, including the Uniform Rapid Suspension which will be a shorter quicker and less expensive method than UDRP to take domains away, and we all know how many horrible UDRP decision there are.
With that as a back drop, at the Domain Roundtable last week in the Bahamas, I was on a panel about branding with Andries de Villiers, of adMarketplace, and Gregg McNair of PPX.com and DomainAdvisors.com
Towards the end of the session Morgan Linton asked the following question to the panel:
“We are talking about branding our industry, for all of us we know all the great things that we do in the industry, but from the outside world, a good example when I attended Affiliate Summit this year, I would say, I am a domainer, and the other attendees would so – “Oh you buy lots of Typo’s” and I think that is something that has hurt our brand so I would like to know what you guys think about it, because there are probably a number of people in the room that do make a fortune, or small fortune off of typo’s, yet that probably hurts our brand the most, because it is things that you guys are talking about that help our industry like Right of the Dot (my new venture) building out a real brand, that is where people see the value, how do you think that we can change that?”
I stated my position that typo traffic and domains which are pure trademark infringing domains are horrible for the industry. I always try to tell non-domainers that there is a difference between domain investors who invest in generic domains like people invest in stocks to distingush those people from the Typo crowd. I also cited that study that was done a while back looking at the amount of typo domains hosted on servers with more than 1,000 domains, I was proud to say that my company’s servers at MostWantedDomains.com was listed as having one of the lowest rates of typo’s in the world, and that our servers we’re the only “domainer” owned server to make the list.
Here is the discussion that followed:
Andries de Villiers:
“With Google changing their algorithmic I think will help evolve the industry away from a lot of the typos and the misspellings more to higher quality domains that have real value to them”
Gregg McNair:
“I’m known for kind of being to the point”
“Typo names are the best converting traffic that advertisers want, it’s what they want, and its what the industry, whether we like it or not has been built on.”
“I sit here not as one of these lily white people, who says “I don’t own any of names, just like my friend here.”
“When I started off, I didn’t know any better and thought that is the way the industry worked.”
“I realized that its not the way to go and we sold all of those potentially infringing names 2 1/2 years ago.”
“and Yes, our company monetizes them for people, we are involved in them, but I get a little tired about the lip service that is given to the damage that these TM are doing, because most of the people I know, that are involved, at the moment someone wants the typo of a name wants it, they give it back”
“So there is nothing going wrong at the moment, its not even illegal until someone wants it.”
“Guys i don’t think its all bad for the industry that this is where the cash flow is coming to enable people like us to be able to build into more traditional, conventional and I would say future businesses.
“No, It’s not all bad”
“That’s my answer to you”
That is pretty how much the session ended.
Obviously I couldn’t disagree more with Mr. McNair’s comments, but the issue isn’t about Gregg, because I think his comments echo the feelings of a lot of people in the domain industry, and it’s the comments, not the person I take issue with.
Is the strategy of registering thousands, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of TM domains against domain investors long term interests?
In my opinion Yes.
Is there money in TM domains?
Sure, always has been.
I do think this discussion illustrates that there is a division in the domainer community of those that see TM issues as a high paying, high risk venture, and others like myself that passed on millions, probably tens of millions of dollars over the years, deciding that such domains would be a huge negative for the industry long term.
In my opinion advertisers don’t want typo traffic, especially of their own brand.
Advertisers want high quality relevant and converting traffic.
TM domains are the reason why trademark groups have been lobbying governments around the world for more protections, which have led to proposals like the Uniform Rapid Domain Suspension (URS) under which a lot of domains, even those with generic terms will be lost.
TM issues have caused domainers to be lumped in by some with phishing sites, spammers and other shady characters.
Domain holders were included right up there with those folks.
To say there is nothing wrong with TM infringement and “its not even illegal unless someone asks for them back”, is a philosophy that is simply not in accordance with the law or reality, and one which is going to cause domain investors a lot of problems.
Plenty of UDRP and even federal lawsuits are filed without anyone asking for the domain back.
So the real question at the end of the day is how would you would have answered Morgan’s question?
Any remind me who Gregg sold all those “potentially infringing names” to?
“you guys are talking about that help our industry like Right of the Dot (my new venture) building out a real brand, that is where people see the value, how do you think that we can change that?”
======
There is a very simple solution, LET COMPUTERS DO IT, not humans.
Twitter has Trending Tags – Do Trademark Attorneys go ballistic ?
Having people selecting strings to the “Right of the Dot” and having more people debate those strings is a waste of valuable human time. We have computers for such mundane tasks.
Why is ICANN allowed to capture the high-tech (computer) industry with manual human-based processes from the stone ages ?
You bring up a very interesting and thoughtful discussion. I decided to do a post on my own blog about this which you can see here. http://www.neusnews.com/
@ MHB said: “others like myself that passed on millions, probably tens of millions of dollars over the years, deciding that such domains would be a huge negative for the industry long term.” Good for you! I’m so proud of you.
Is trademark-infringement domains investment even worth it? Look at GoDaddy. GoDaddy is being sued by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences AND uBid in two multi-million dollar suits for profitting off parked trademark-infringement. GD is like, “We can’t be responsible for what other people register.”
As MHB said, it’s bad bad bad.
“In my opinion advertisers don’t want typo traffic, especially of their own brand. Advertisers want high quality relevant and converting traffic. ”
They do want that traffic but if they knew where it came from they’d never want to pay for it. I think many are just ignorant of this fact. That’s where you get guys like Citizen Hawk who come in and teach them how to remedy it.
A few other notes, the largest sums of money in this industry is generated by guys that have the massive TM folios. I believe anyone in this industry long enough knows this. There’s sick money made in that sector and I think most follow Gregg’s line of thinking . It’s not bad because I’ve not been caught or it’s not bad because the TM owner hasnt asked for the domain. . . . With that line of thinking, if you steal someone’s possession it’s only stealing if you’re caught or if they miss the item and come looking for you to give it back. ugh
I had a young domainer come up to me asking me wether I thought they should invest in tm folios, knowing the potential problems that could come from owning those kinds of names. It’s a very alluring side of the business when you see young guys driving fancy sports cars, making bank off these names.
Morgan works with McNair and he’s asking this question ? seems odd to me.
“I realized that its not the way to go and we sold all of those potentially infringing names 2 1/2 years ago.”
Anyone want to take a stab at who bought those ?
@ andrew it starts with a D
I agree Mike. This line of thinking is VERY bad for us legitimate domain investors.
His comment reflects the exact notion that many folks outside the industry get…….that we are all sleaze.
I could have made many, many, many millions more buying TM domains, especially since I started in 1995, but I didn’t. I passed, even knowing these domains would make more money than regular generics on a whole. I knew it was wrong, and I still do.
This is why I left NamePros . It became a cesspool of openly selling blatant trademark domains. I made my feelings clear and then I left and never returned. It’s been over two years now.
The method of domaining that Greg mentions is what has made me look bad many times in the eyes of others in real life situations where I mentioned I buy and sell domains. I even had a guy want to fight me one time and he knew nothing about me or what kind of domains I buy or sell. I just casually mentioned what I do for a living and his face changed expressions and he started insulting me. I told him to go jump in a lake and he got in my face.
This is image that Greg and MANY others in the industry are perpetuating. It’s sick.
I don’t claim to be “Lily White”, just an honest business person making less than the TM players b/c I play a clean game.
Honestly, we should term domaining as “Black Hat Domaining” and “White Hat Domaining”, as that would make more sense to the public.
@ Louise
@ Landon White said: Stop spamming everyone with your PRETEND
to be a good citizen crap.
i believe he called you a Government Spook,
it sure does fit your posts every time i personally can see.
DON’T SPAM ME AGAIN!
While I don’t agree with trademark infringement on principal and because I respect intellectual property rights, I think it’s kind of hypocritical to lambast someone for registering typo domains, when in the same breath I am trying to pump up a new business venture offering to whore myself out to any new extension that come’s along.
While I don’t have any names or sites “Trademarked” I have worked hard to create brands around certain names and websites by coming up with original content and the look and feel of the sites. It would be ridiculous to think that every time a new extension rolls around, I would have the resources to protect my brand by defensively registering that domain in that new extension, yet are not those promoting these extension encouraging infringement by way of offering someone else the chance to dilute my brand by purchasing the same domain in a that new extension? Hey it’s legal right? so who’s to stop someone from doing it?
There is a thin line between “Trademark Infringement” and stepping on people’s toes. There are certain moral (for lack of a better word) duties or implications and not just the legal one’s. While it’s hard to truly define either in some cases (for instance PokerStrategy.Co) what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Trademark infringement can be looked at from many different angles and perspectives and not just the legal aspects or ramifications that protect or benefit big corporations, lawyers or those trying to make a quick buck solely.
rightoffthedot.com
is available!
now that a good typo case study
Dean
“I think it’s kind of hypocritical to lambast someone for registering typo domains, when in the same breath I am trying to pump up a new business venture offering to whore myself out to any new extension that come’s along. “”
I’m not lambasting anyone.
I’m just repeating what a person said at an open conference in a room of 40 or so people knowing full well it was being taped and would be made available to the general public.
Regarding whoring myself out, Monte and I are going to be VERY picky as to what clients and extensions we take on and are quite limited in our available time.
So selling services and/or being part of a business we believe in is far from whoring myself or ourselves out to all comers.
@ Dean
Where you been on a World Tour?
Vince Cerf loved “Surf City by Lan and Dean” so much he wants us…
to perform and sing at the San Francisco ICANN meeting this month.
we are going to have to sing ….
“The Little Old Lady from Columbia-(dena)”
[ Lan And Dean style ]
Stuart Lawly said he would provide the Honeys
for the back up vocals!
Andrew – To answer your question, Gregg sold all of those TM domains to Demand Media. How do you think he became a shareholder.
Today i give to the TM holder “ecolab dot co” . I dont belive i did anything wrong by buyit.If the TM holder ask for it(in time) i voluntarly give it back ,but if some body else that wanted to start a business called” ecolab dot co” and he register’s a TM under that name, what wrong wih that? There could be 10 TM with the same name different type of business.I know most of you know your stuff ,i’m get telling some of the people that dont know,like Mr.yikes…
“To say there is nothing wrong with TM infringement and “its not even illegal unless someone asks for them back”, is a philosophy that is simply not in accordance with the law or reality, and one which is going to cause domain investors a lot of problems.” – MHB
This actually sums it up petty well. Not much else to say that isn’t some form of rationalization. Bottom line: Stay away from TM’s and typos.
Deliberate typosquatting is Scumbag 101 and absolutely causes loss to that business (and if anyone is sincerely so stupid that you can’t figure out ‘how’ typosquatting causes loss to a business, go ahead and ask).
Of course, it’s profitable. Any time money is the question, we can safely assume there will be a group of people who act without any regard for anything but their own self interests, even if it’s at the direct expense of everyone else.
That group of people is why regulation, everywhere, exists.
Of course, the nagging question (with a potentially ugly answer) is just how ‘fringe’ are typosquatters when it comes to successful domainers? Or are they mainstream?
And what about parking services that allows this insane business to exist, are not them the first to blame?
Francois
Yes the parking companies bare a lot of responsibility as if these domains were not monetized they would by in large not be registered
@MHB, excuse me – I have to speak up! – “Yes the parking companies bare a lot of responsibility as if these domains were not monetized they would by in large not be registered.”
And that is where Registrars themselves come in, who pick up the drops of violating domains. Their own policies prohibit it, as the Registrars monetize under Privacy, and they operate under some sort of immunity that ICANN confers; they are not accountable, as ICANN is not accountable to call them to task for violating the RAA.
Registrars magnify the probem as they greedily soak up the revenue from trademark typos while individual investors, labeled, “Domainers” take the blame.
Domainers protect and promote the internet. Next time somebody picks a fight, tell him he should be happy US domainers had foresight to register English-language dot coms, or they would all be owned by foreign investors right now, and the internet would be in Chinese hands, just like physical real estate, and US companies would be having to negotiate in Chinese for English domains, instead of English.
Louise
Another good point
Registrars make a fortune on placeholders of TM domains.
Drop services and registrars that have their own auction platform make a fortune selling off these Typo’s to the highest bidder.
Jim and Andrew
I have been told by Mr. McNair that the portfolio he referred to in the session as having been sold 2.5 years ago was not the portfolio of domains that were sold to Demand Media.”
According to Gregg:
“The Demand Media deal was done more than 4 years ago and they carefully vetted every domain.”
The sale I referred to at Domain RoundTable was 2.5 years ago, so they are unrelated deals.”
“Typo names are the best converting traffic”
“our company monetizes them (typos)”
“the industry…has been built on”(typos)
“we are involved in” (typos)
“there is nothing wrong”
“Guys i don’t think its all bad for the industry that this is where the cash flow is coming to enable people like us to be able to build into more traditional, conventional and I would say future businesses”
signed Greg McNair
“DOMAINER OF THE YEAR”
Ah, more pearls of wisdom from another DOMAINER OF THE YEAR. Greg, let me correct one thing you said. There is no INDUSTRY Greg. Owning TYPOs does not make you a businessman, it makes you a cybersquatter and making money off of them as you say you do in your business makes you a cybersquatter and a leach. Domainer of the Year, hahahahahhah what a gut buster.
Hey good luck with domain advisors. Given the great free tips you give here I’m certain the fortune 500 will be lining up to use your services. Maybe you can get them a discount in recovering their typos from all your customers. Talk aboyt shooting oneself in the foot. Painful I am sure, specially when your foot is in your mouth.
We should have two categories for domain investors, like I said previously, but regarding domainer of the year award, we should have two winning categories :
1. White Hat Domainer of the Year
2. Black Hat Domainer of the Year
At least this would separate us domain investors (again, not saying we are Lily White) from the intentional domain squatters that make these typos their main business model.
You know, there are many drug dealers, that use drug money to buy into legal businesses. The mafia does this all the time ; recyclables, pizza restaurants, strip clubs, etc…… What makes Greg’s notions any different?
I know he does not give a sh*t , or he would not be defecating on the industry. It’s a typical “fu*k off” , I do what I want attitude, that makes him, the industry, and I would even say the Nation the cesspool it has become.
Nobody has any integrity any more, which also means you can’t trust anyone anymore.
Honestly, I have never met him, and he’s probably a really great guy, but I can’t stand this industry practice as a flagrant disregard of law and the ruining of honest domain investor’s reputations.
Johnny
Gregg is actually a “really great guy” as you said and if you do have the chance to meet him, (he is at almost every domainer show), I’m sure you will walk away liking him as person very much.
“We should have two categories for domain investors, ”
1. White Hat Domainer of the Year
2. Black Hat Domainer of the Year”
—————————–
How about Domainer & Domaimer 😉