I just got a renewal bill from my registrar, Hexonet on some Minds + Machines domain names I registered last year at normal registration prices.
I have spent well into the six figures on new gTLD’s, so I put my money at risk all the time in the very speculative new gTLD space.
In this case there was an issue with the pricing sent over by the registry Minds + Machines to my registrar, Hexonet.
Along the way in the registration process the retail price got screwed.
Unlike mostly every domain name registrar on earth, Hexonet charged me the normal registration rate and ate the loss.
To their credit, Hexonet did the right thing.
Hexonet paid the extra registration fees that I was not aware of (and neither where they) and just charged me the regular registration rate. However now these domains are coming up for renewal, I got a bill Hexonet for the real renewal pricing , and the prices are well nothing less than staggering.
I would have to think about renewing any of these at normal renewal fees, but at the premium renewal prices they carry, I’m not renewing a single domain name.
If you want any of these domain names, they will available shortly.
Just bring a big, big check.
I would point to quarter.horse which at a $5,400 annual renewal fee is higher than the cost of an actual championship quarter horse and BigGame.fishing which at $2,700 a year is more than chartering a boat to do some real big game fishing.
Remember I’m on a huge discounted price with Hexonet.
The price at Godaddy or any other registrar will probably be 10%-30% higher.
Certainly these are not the type of domain names I have gotten though Donuts for prices many times lower. BigGame.Fishing is certainly not College.Football, Online.Dating or Free.Email for example.
As for Minds +Machines if you want to tell me drink.vodka is a bargain at a $2,700 annual renewal rate I’m all ears but I don’t think paying $2,700 a year for Drink .Vodka is a better buy than buying 60/ 1.75 litter bottles of Grey Goose at my local Walgreens which is running me a whopping $49.99 per bottle.
I actually reached for the Goose after getting the bill.
For the record I did not receive any offers for any of these domains, not one of them, in the year I held them even not knowing they had the ridiculous high renewal prices nor did any of these domains get any amount of significant traffic in the year I held them.
With that being said here are my Minds + Machines “premium” domain names at Hexonet that I will not be renewing:
ban.fishing $ 550.00
stop.fishing $ 550.00
drink.vodka $2,700.00
rods.fishing $ 65.00
the.rodeo $ 550.00
farm.fishing $ 65.00
the.fishing $ 125.00
vegas.rodeo $ 295.00
biggame.fishing $2,700.00
bullriding.rodeo $ 550.00
great.fishing $1,100.00
the.cooking $ 125.00
otb.horse $ 125.00
breeding.horse $ 125.00
harness.horse $ 295.00
sea.horse $ 550.00
dressage.horse $ 295.00
quarter.horse $5,400.00
auction.horse $ 295.00
colts.horse $ 295.00
You have a huge discounted price with Hexonet? Tell me more.
Of course, this issue would not exist if there had been pricing caps in place from the start (as I and others argued in the numerous comment periods, etc.). Of course, the insiders at ICANN made sure that this did not happen.
Remember, registry operators of new gTLDs can raise prices at will, with only a notice period requirement. Read the registry agreements for your new gTLDs carefully. I’m guessing most registrars don’t tell their registrants this critical information.
Why anyone would build a website on such a shaky foundation, where future costs are uncertain, is beyond me…….
If highly sophisticated individuals like Mike are seeing their investment turn to dust, imagine the fate of *unsophisticated* domain name buyers….
BaitAndSwitch.fishing is available.
Okay but didn’t Donuts get written in to their contracts that they couldn’t increase the renewal price willy-nilly?
Here out of the goodness of their hearts ICANN releases all these new extensions because .com’s are being hoarded and sold at high prices. Then they let the registrars go in and screw unsuspecting people with there high prices. Reminds me of her
https://youtu.be/GMe-VINzYjg
Don’t blame the registrars, it is some of the registries that came up with these prices. Registrars do not like it any more than registrants do as we have to deal with the unhappy customers.
One has better odds at surviving the Hunger Games (only 1 in 24 lives through it), than one does at turning a profit on new gTLDs as a registrant.
Hi George,
curious to understand how did you arrive at the 1 every 24 equation ?
It is a cash grab. Let’s see how many of these extensions stay open past the minimum requirement.
Rods.fishing? That reminds me of the mid 2000’s when you can buy keywords reversed and it would still work for SEO purposes.
For reader’s convenience.
Here all the registry policies
https://www.mindsandmachines.com/registry-policies
Same thing with Donuts also.
Had few .Properties domains in 400 USD and 1000 USD, now renewal also in the same price and they think people are stupid enough to pay that much cost to carry their stupid domains.
Instead I feel its better to pay 2000 usd for a .com and develop that.
Everytime you buy one of these you justify their pricing model which is absurd, you are the only person to blame.
@Jean i own around 80K domain names that is why I get special pricing from any registrar
@Tom when I registered these domains they were at normal registration fees like say $30 but it could have been $20. I did not pay thousands of dollars for these domain or any of the premium prices. if those domains were properly priced on the launch I wouldn’t have registered any of them.
@Ajay
I think Donuts pricing in general is MUCH fairer, obviously much higher than a .com, but it does have some logic and there are some great buys.
Yes some of the domains are overpriced for a domainer but for an end user if they spend $800 a year for a domain like newyork.condos its a bargain when the average condo in NYC sells for over $1M and up to over $100M
So how much money flows through the Newyork.condo market?
What is the total amount of sales of New York condos in 2014?
What is the total amount of sales of Quarter Horses in 2014?
case closed
Now a domain like quarter.horse there is no value the market for quarter horses without doing research
“… when I registered these domains they were at normal registration fees like say $30 but it could have been $20. I did not pay thousands of dollars for these domain or any of the premium prices. if those domains were properly priced on the launch I wouldn’t have registered any of them.”
Glad you cleared that up, Mike.
I can see a novice speculating on some of the names in the list at $20 or $30. Surprised you went for any of those — at any price.
@Alan
All new gTLD registries have the basic same contract with ICANN
New gTLD registries, including Donuts can raise renewal prices, but they have to give a registrant a 6 month notice and give them the opportunity to renew the domain at the current rate for the remainder of the 10 year term
Actually, that’s not quite correct. The new gTLDs registries have to give *ICANN* and the *registrar* the notice. Whether the registrar passes on the bad news to the clients would be something determined by the RAA — and I don’t think the RAA contemplated that scenario.
BTW, Mike, for “Premium” names, section 2.10(c) of the .horse ICANN agreement says:
“In addition, Registry Operator must have uniform pricing for renewals of domain name registrations (“Renewal Pricing”). For the purposes of determining Renewal Pricing, the price for each domain registration renewal must be identical to the price of all other domain name registration renewals in place at the time of such renewal, and such price must take into account universal application of any refunds, rebates, discounts, product tying or other programs in place at the time of renewal. The foregoing requirements of this Section 2.10(c) shall not apply for (i) purposes of determining Renewal Pricing if the registrar has provided Registry Operator with documentation that demonstrates that the applicable registrant expressly agreed in its registration agreement with registrar to higher Renewal Pricing at the time of the initial registration of the domain name following clear and conspicuous disclosure of such Renewal Pricing to such registrant, and (ii) discounted Renewal Pricing pursuant to a Qualified Marketing Program (as defined below). ”
Did you “expressly agree” to that higher renewal pricing at the time of the initial registration, and did you received ” clear and conspicuous disclosure” of it? If they didn’t do that properly, then I think you’d be entitled to receive “normal” renewal pricing.
From your statement in the original blog post “I was not aware of (and neither where they) and just charged me the regular registration rate.” it seems to me that you didn’t receive “clear and conspicuous disclosure” and didn’t “expressly agree” to it, but perhaps you’d need to go back to check what you agreed to at the time.
Perhaps this would be a key test for ICANN, to set a standard for what that “clear and conspicuous” disclosure really means, which could help an entire class of registrants who got suckered into those registrations.
Thank you for this contribution George.
I have been considering the possibility of building on a .whatever but always veering back toward paying more for a .com, initially, and reaping the added benefits.
I wonder if any of these companies will wait until someone has built on these type of domains and then try and raise prices knowing the developer/company will be placed in a tricky situation. It wont be happening to me now, that is for sure.
Thanks for this info, Mike.
It is good to know that I COULD renew my 1 letter ones for 10 years at the current price.
🙂
The pricing with new gtld was a big mistake. A lot of extensions, pricing cost are too high. The sales are low. Premium price? Who want to pay the same initial cost year after year? Should it be the aftermarket who decide? They should be a central issuer for initial sales (new issues) and registrars acting as broker. The registrars are doing safekeeping, and with some of them, they can’t even guarantee that you won’t get your domain stolen and wash their hands after. Maybe, registrants should have the possibility to have a physical certificate of ownership like with stocks/bonds. But, internet is what it is,,,,poor business. Before charging high cost, they might want to make sure that their extensions are adopted first.
FUNDAMENTALLY, it is wrong that the pricing mechanism between .com and the new gTLDs is allowed to be different. That should be corrected.
The renewal rates will increase in conjunction with the projected annual revenues. The more drops, the fewer regs, the increased renewal rates. A business model that rarely works for a “nice-to-have” product. When it’s “must have”, consumers usually pay, albeit cursing and biting their lips.
@Michael:
yup, just let biggame.fishing drop.
We’ll organize a big game fishing trip to catch some marlins, sails, yellow fin in the Carib and no renewal fees. But you’ll need to have plenty storage to keep all the fish 🙂
As I understand it, Minds and Machines have a different model to many others and intend to sell premium domains to end users for high prices so they will be used. I bought itcant.work for $1 from them and quite a few other bargains which I will be sad to relinquish if the renewals are too high, but I didn’t really think they would be that cheap to renew because those were on offer at the time and great names. What would you have charged for those great domains to the end user incidentally? Are their prices far off?
The registries are free to price their new TLD domains for end users. However, in 2015 most end users are not looking to pay premium prices for any domain much less a new TLD. Thus far my new TLD holdings continue to be…
ZERO!
Talk about thinning the herd
IMHO yes M +M prices are ridiculous high compared to Donuts on premiums and I’m unfortunately not a shareholder of Donuts and the are not as you can see an advertiser on thedomains.com not have ever been
George i think you might be the only person on earth that read through the .horse .contract
Not sure if i should sent you congrats or some medical help
lol Mike. It’s the same as the standard template for all the new gTLDs, which I’ve read. 🙂
But, it does give you potential recourse due to the “expressly agree” and ” “clear and conspicuous” language.
Well I think most of those domains are worth $20-$30 but once we hit the 3 and 4 figures as i Said I’m letting them all go
Once again Hexonet stood up and took the loss not sure what other registrars did that on incorrectly priced domains
Not Godaddy, They held my money for days tying up my funds during the donuts 2 letter EAP, I lost names that I thought I had registered (you got 1). After a couple days they ended up refunding all of my money for names that ended up being registered elsewhere and for names that were still available. The whole process ended up costing me money on the day to day exchange rates.
@george
either you’re a super fast reader and your reading comprehension skills are off the charts – impressive, or you have way too much time on your hand(s) 🙂
Even the founders don’t read the TOS. Usually just the lawyers — and that’s because they’re getting well compensated. Users — maybe one in 10 million – glance at the TOS.
haha Steve. I know what to look for, and I do read quickly. 🙂 Recall that in 2006 I discovered that issue in a draft of the .biz/info/org agreements which would have allowed for tiered-pricing by those registries (i.e. charging a different price for different domains, just like .TV), which could have migrated to .com via the equal treatment clause, so I’ve watched those agreements closely ever since.
Or perhaps he just did a Keyword Search?
@george
Given the choice of entering the Hunger Games as an entrant or waging my life’s savings on the GTLD extensions, I’m pretty sure I’d choose the Hunger Games , if I get at least a sword or dagger. 🙂
Every day I am happier that I do not own a single newTLD.
Crazy prices. Anyway, new TLDs are not for investors but for startups, when the .com isn’t available or you want a domain to support your brand story, where .com comes off as too dusty.
You’re joking or you’re invested in these money-pits yourself. Too dusty, lol.
Right, just ask Box.net, er I mean Box.com. Or Delicio.us, er I mean Delicious.com. Soylent.me, er I mean Soylent.com… I could go on and on.
Chris, don’t get it twisted, start-ups aren’t choosing to not use a .Com by choice. If it’s available, and or not cost prohibitively priced for a start-up, they go with .com. Because if history is any indicator, as soon as they scale and go from start-up to a successful company, and they can afford to switch to the .Com, they do.
This type of renewal pricing is capable of diminishing the love some of us have for the new gTLDs.
Great blog thread.
Yes, the registry agreement allows for pricing changes, and appropriately so. Still, it’s unfortunate to see a situation like this one, which, to be fair, may have been due to an EPP implementation error or another cause. ICANN protects against surprising price increases in the RA by providing sufficient notice to customers — as Mike points out, in the event a registry does raise prices (according to section 2.10 of the registry agreement) there’s a six-month notice given to registrants along with the ability to renew the name for up to 10 years at the existing price.
Donuts has worked hard to fairly price names and as a result is seeing growth in registrations and use. Our goal is to encourage registration and use of names in our domains. As registries and registrars become increasingly experienced with the relatively new EPP pricing extension, we expect the incidence of these outlier situations to diminish even further.
Hi Mason,
As I mentioned earlier, section 2.10(b) actually only gives the notice to the registrars and ICANN. Whether the registrar has an obligation to give notice to the registrant doesn’t seem to be expressly written down anywhere, even in the RAA.
Section 2.10(b)’s language is “With respect to renewal of domain name registrations, Registry Operator shall provide ICANN and each ICANN accredited registrar that has executed the registry-registrar agreement for the TLD advance written notice of any price ……”
[the word “registrant” doesn’t appear, with regards to the notice]
As for the 2013 RAA, I couldn’t find anything directly relating to a “notice requirement” for registrars to proactively notify registrants of pricing changes for renewals. The closest I could find is under “Registrants’ Benefits and Responsibilities” where it says:
“You are entitled to accurate and accessible information about:
….Your Registrar’s terms and conditions, including pricing information, applicable to domain name registrations;”
Of course, registrants aren’t parties to the RAA, and none of the above language is “proactive” about notifying registrants about a pricing change. Registrars could simply change the price unilaterally, but make it “accurate and accessible”, but it’s up to the registrant to monitor and find out for themselves that it has changed.
There certainly needs to be clear and conspicuous disclosures, regarding renewal fees, prior to purchase. Doesn’t the FTC have guidelines in place pertaining to this?
@George
Thanks for giving us the abridged/condensed version with just the facts, sir. 🙂
One of your best posts ever, Michael. On the plus side, I owe you that $500 bottle of Tequila 🙂
Interesting insight Michael. With those prices it would seem that you are more of an investor in these extensions for the registry. You buying into the idea that their managing of these assets is what makes them more valuable over time. That can be costly. For $5k a year, a start-up could lease a long term .com asset instead.
Michael
Won’t disagree with you
Again I didn’t pay those amount
Hexonet took the hit to their credit
However I actually didn’t know there were eating that kind of registration on other domains in M+M extensions once they let me know what the real price was and they were way upside down I told them just to cancel the registrations which I would have done with these too
No one should piss money away like this
Not so sure hexonet is eating the fees as they told me M+M gave them a discount for the 1st year to compensate for the initial pricing error, but the renewals would be higher (registered a couple for $30 which should have been $2k – $3k/year
David
Platinum Patron is fine but I think its more like $550
I get an inside price 🙂
Agree — great blog post, great discussion!
I feel M+M are shooting themselves in the foot. But I’ve also read they are not happy with the new TLD business prospects in general. I am happy not to be a registrant.
I wrote about this — and how it is perhaps ushering a new online publishing / media landscape: http://nooblogs.com/2015/09/23/publishing-relaunched
Thanks for helping me think more (+ hopefully also somewhat rationally) about this!
🙂 nmw
Great Post Mike!
The pricing is nothing short of outrageous. It’s quite ironic that the registries, the most vocal proponents of the new GTLD’s, companies who have used the aftermarket pricing for premium .Com’s, as a means to justify the necessity of this massive expansion of the domain ecosystem, are pricing them at rates that don’t make any fiscal sense.
Without question a developed Drink.Vodka would leak traffic to DrinkVodka.com. All of these names will leak traffic for a very long time. Every registry knows this, yet they’re asking for registrants to pay a ridiculous premium year over year for something that will definitively be the inferior space for a business to operate online from for minimally fifteen years.
What a joke this whole GTLD expansion is. The domain industry seems to be filled with more sharks and snake-oil than ever before. I know there’s some good operators out there, too bad it seems that the bad apples always spoil the bunch, and get all the press.
Hey Mike,
Sounds like this really took you by surprise. It shouldn’t have, and we tried to make sure that you and other people in your situation wouldn’t be. Read on to learn why….
When we first came out with our TLDs in September of last year, a number of registrars who signed our RRA didn’t read through them carefully and as a result for a short while sold premium names at standard prices — looks like some of the ones you registered were in that group. When we found out, we reached out to registrars and in every case agreed that we wouldn’t charge them the premium price (things were a little chaotic for everyone at the time) expressly so that their customers wouldn’t freak, but that they should charge the true price when the names renewed. That’s what happened here.
We asked the registrars concerned, and they agreed, to send out a notice to those who got premium names at standard prices letting them know that renewals would take place at the higher rate. Hexonet’s a great registrar, so I’m sure their notice either ended up in your spam folder or somehow you missed it. This all happened shortly after the registrations occurred. As you know, as a registry we are not allowed to reach out directly to registrants, so we have to rely on registrars communicating directly with their customers.
George K is right, the Registry Agreement (which all registries must sign) says that we must give six month’s notice of any renewal price increase. We always took this to mean that we need to inform registrars, not just ICANN. But in any case we voluntarily, in our RRA, agree to give six month’s notice to registrars of *any* price changes (up or down), whether the price changes are for renewals or not. Again, to avoid surprises. All of this is clearly communicated to registrars and since we can’t communicate directly with registrants, it’s really up to them to share that with registrants. And just so you know, since we sold our first domains in 2014 we have never once hiked our prices for any of our TLDs. We have, however, run a series of price promos where prices were lowered. We don’t have any current plans to raise prices, notice period or not.
Like Mason and the Donuts team, at Minds + Machines we worked hard to price our premiums so that they would work for the market. Not everyone agrees with our decisions, which is fine, but enough do that our premium names are selling well, accounting for about 3% of our volume but about 25% of our revenue. That’s the nature of a marketplace — some people buy, some don’t. All we can do is to clearly communicate our pricing to registrars, who then set the retail prices, and then their customers decide if the retail prices work for them. One of the requirements in our RRA is that registrars have to display our policies to registrants so that surprises are kept to a minimum.
I remember when you told me that you had registered quarter.horse. You looked like a cat who just swallowed the family canary — happy! Now I understand why! There are 2.5M quarter horses in the United States, with 80,000 new registrations in the breed registry last year alone. The name might not be worth the renewal fee to you, but it might be a great name for the AQHA or any of the many quarter horse organizations out there. Different names are worth different things to different people.
Sorry this happened to you, but we really tried to make sure everyone was thoroughly informed. As it happened, you got a year of our premium names at standard prices, but I agree that no-one should have renewal sticker-shock.
Antony
P.S. I saw a comment above about .work renewal pricing. For the .work names we gave away for a few weeks, and are still selling very cheaply, renewals will probably be around $7 – $8 annually at renewal, depending on registrar mark up.
The AQHA uses AQHA.com, and I doubt Quarter DOT Horse would be a better name than what they already use, no point in giving you $50,000 a decade for it.
On another point thank you for letting domainers know you don’t want their business.
Also the shady practice of passing pricing info onto registars, and placing it on their backs to inform domain owners that pay your bills as oh well attitude, won’t fly.
The whole Freddy Kreuger mess on top of the mess above, you should really be proud of what you have accomplished by simply losing domain auctions.
Because essentially you have profited by just being a loser.
Antony
I will say this
The renewal prices were unknown to me and when I got the renewal fees, yes I was shocked and those that know me will tell you I’m not easily shocked
I have spend over $500K on new gTLD’s domain registrations but each one I bought i knew the price going in omn the registration and renewal fees except for M+M domains
I have no idea if the pricing issue is on the registrar or the registry but i will tell you I got several .London domains through enom.com that had the same issue a domain I was charged a normal registration fee for that had a premium registration and renewal amount that was much higher
In that case enom.com wound up eating the extra fee as well
I can also tell you that there were other M+M domain I got through Hexonet on other extension that had a huge registration/renewal price and once Hexonet informed of the price discrepancy I told them just to delete the registrations as there was no reason to make Hexonet eat the cost of a domain that could never be resold.
I will also say I have spent a small fortune in Donuts, Radix, Rightside, and other new gTLD registry domains but other than M+M I have never had an issue where the amount of the registration and renewal was misstated.
Sorry but that is the fact sir.
I have thrown down over $10K on day 1 of EAP and walked away happy to get a domain, so I have no problem spending cash, however I don’t want a domain that is priced at $2K a year or $5K A YEAR or more to have a price of $20 its a waste of my time, my registrars money which I don’t like to see them pissing away and thinking i have a great domain which i really don’t because the real price is unrealistic to carry
So these pricing issues have ONLY come from M+M
M+M is the only registry in my experience where the price I paid wound up being a completely price than was the actual price.
I’m a big buyer and well aware I get special rates and special treatment from registrars and appreciate it greatly and I understand its not something that is going to be offered to 99% of the buyers out there
So when I write about this stuff its for the 99% of the domainers out there that get screwed
After all I just paid the normal fee, the registrars sucked the loss for me, but everyone is a loser
I could shut up about it but its just not the proper way to do business and its not happening with any other registries
Mike – to be clear, no-one “sucked the loss” because no additional money was paid — not by you, not by the registrars. I don’t blame the registrars, and certainly not the customers, but I don’t think it’s fair to imply that we charged anyone for the error. We provided our prices and signed contracts that were quite clear, and when there was confusion we acted quickly to work out an arrangement with our registrar partners whereby *no-one* paid us anything other than the standard price. We sucked it up, which was the right thing to do for our registrar customers and their customers (you). We’re not perfect but we do everything we can to make it right when something goes wrong — our fault or not. You paid the standard price, and so did the registrar. Now that it’s renewal time, the correct price is being provided to you, and you have every right not to renew. I wish we had been able to contact you earlier to explain, but unfortunately that’s not how the system works.
Actually, from a legal standpoint (depending on jurisdiction, specifically as relating to consumer protection laws)
If you sell a product or service at an incorrect price, in this case with a renewal fee stated below that intended, you are obligated to honour that renewal fee as it constituted a part of the decision process to buy.
Now a vendor may have the opportunity to remove a product/service prior to the exchange of money, but once money has changed hands, options may be far more limited as a contract has been entered into.
Of course this is where you would point to your Terms and Conditions as a “get out of jail free card”
Except, depending on a countries consumer protection laws, Terms and Conditions that aim to remove the rights of the consumer may be deemed invalid and unenforceable.
Further to this, by offering your product/service into a country, you may be held liable by that countries consumer protection laws irrespective of where you are located (Steam for instance is required by Australian law to provide local customer service support and warranties for software sold to Australian customers even though such warranties are not offered to their local customer base, with a requirement that such warranties meet the minimum requirements under Australian law
You state that M did not pay additional fees.
However, the domain names were paid for with the expectation of a set renewal price that was stated up front.
The failure to alert M and provide full disclosure and the opportunity of a refund is the big problem here, especially in light of the washing of one’s hands approach due to the inability to communicate directly with the customers, being reliant on the middleman which again, depending on consumer protection laws, wouldn’t hold up.
In short, this fiasco is one big mess.
The options available are…
1. Leave things as they are. (Which is the option youare ccurrently pursuing)
2. Refund the fees paid to correct the error, which was an option when you discovered the error (your big contention being that M as a domainer had a year to sell the domains and so would in effect be profiting…except if he had sold them based on the erroneous belief as to what the renewal fees were, he could in turn have faced a lawsuit for missinforming any potential customer who acquired the domain name)
3. Honour the renewal rate originally quoted (not something you obviously want to do, but dependent on consumer protection, specifically as regards M’s location, something you might be legally required to do. Said consumer laws might allow a price hike over the original quoted renewal fee, though said protections might place limits on what an acceptable price rise is. This being where you would need to ask your lawyers regarding the situation.)
I would recommend option 2 as the best course of action for all parties concerned as far as dealing with this headache.
Mike, thank you for putting some humor into this house of cards. Its as if all the companies spruiking new tlds got together and worked out all the catches and miscommunication they could put together to make the entire endeavor fail. Must be a .com conspiracy.
While I’m still recovering from ROFL at “I actually reached for the Goose after getting the bill.” , I need to note there is no point in capping prices other than giving the difference between the cap and the actual value of that name to domainers, an arbitrage process. What is still to be determined is whether registries are pricing their names according to proper market value or not, and it’s only when end users or investors do not buy a name at a certain price that this can be determined. Both the market and registries are learning what those values really are, and it will take years for this process to converge…
… the surprises are the really bad part of this history. Let’s hope “transactional integrity” becomes both a best and a common practice, although in this case it seems registrar and registry got this part right, only the afterwards notice didn’t went thru.
I don’t have enough data to comment on the incidence of those issues with this registry, but it’s clear that for your portfolio the distinction is unquestionable.
Rubens
Right so the registry owns the domains and they can price them at whatever level they want but when the communication between the registries and the registrars break down to the point that either the registrant has no idea of what they just spent to control a domain and/or to the point the registrar feels like they have to step in on behalf of their customer and suck up a huge loss in the thousands of dollars per domain to protect the customer its a problem, and if more than one registrar is in the same situation with the same registry, it’s definitely a problem
Michael deserves some kudos & applause for calling it like it is.
After all, he’s invested $500 K in the GTLDs. This blog gets some $. & he’s the co-founder of a GTLD consulting company.
I do not see how the GTLDs are solving any “problem”. So I might be biased. But I have yet to see any compelling reason for the existence of the GTLDs. .Me, CO, .IT, .TV, .IO, among others, have provided several alternatives to the coveted premium domain(s).
But I do see how .Google, .Apple, .Facebook, among others, could work, albeit ONLY if the brand owners (i.e, Apple, Google and Facebook) own these extensions. Or if ____..agency chooses this over ______agency.com
What’s funny is Mike writes a lot of great post he sometimes writes post that are pro new GTLD the only reason why this is a great post to all these .com owners because he’s bashing the a new g registry. If Mike wrote that he sold a mind and machines name for $20,000 and made a great profit I don’t think it he Castellos or George K or Sean Sullivan would be posting here somehow I don’t think that would be a great post to them. I wonder why ?
Shane, you are a great contributor to the domain space and I think your criticism deserves a response. I am neutral on the new gTLDs. That said, I have not bought one new extension. That does not mean they are not worth something. If ICANN releases a new extension, that alone, gives it value in my book. What that value is, has to be determined.
Every play a slot machine in Vegas? When you win the big prize, they send over a slot host to make a big scene for everyone else to witness them handing you thousands of hundred dollar bills. Very few win that jackpot. In reality, the casinos are the ones that really make the money. I have no problem with that, but I play Vegas to have fun knowing I’ll probably lose money. At least I am entertained in the process. Anytime anyone makes money selling domain names, it helps to establish worth for others to reference for future sales. No matter the extension, it is good for the industry.
If you remember pirate DNS from many years ago, many of these extractions were made available for $50 a pop which would resolve on your browsers if you downloaded a patch. I spent $3000 a year for a couple years and eventually gave all the names to a friend for free. Once bitten, twice shy.
If you are in Florida this week for THE Domain Conference, I would be glad to talk with you further in person.
My name is not Shane
Michael I think you are confusing our commentator Domain Shame who only exists to bitch at anything I have to say with Domain Shane who is actually a productive member of the domain community . Of course Mr Shame could have picked another user id as to not confuse people but he chose the wrong path, again
Where are you getting that Mike I generally support your articles I said you write a lot of great post how was that bitching ? I’m saying certain people are only calling this a great post because you’re knocking new GT LD’s if you were praising them they wouldn’t be posting.
I just registered the domain name Banfishing.com which was available for under $8.50
If Minds + Machines wants it to go with Ban.fishing I would be happy to rent it to them for the same $550 to go with ban.fishing
From reading the article and all the comments, it seems that the only people to “eat the loss”
were the registry (MMX).
“I would point to quarter.horse which at a $5,400 annual renewal fee is higher than the cost of an actual championship quarter horse…”
To be fair, sex.com sold for more than I’d ever pay for sex.
Go back a year, and read your own comment posts, when M&M said .com was dead, look at the Freddy Krueger nightmare.
Rich Schwartz was right a year later you guys are crying how they screwed you.
We wanted to reach out to you and provide you more background information on the M&M Premium Domain event last year, so that you could have more details. Also, we want to give credit to Minds & Machines for stepping up and working with us to find a good solution.
A. Rectifying the Premium Pricing Problem.
Yes, there was a mix up in pricing with the Premium Domains. Understanding this, Minds & Machines were very open and willing to work with HEXONET/1API to find a fair and equitable solution that put registrants first. Together, we worked out an agreement where the unmarked Premium Domains sold at regular prices would be honored for the registrants benefit. Though we didn’t share with clients how the pricing difference was handled with Minds & Machines; however, HEXONET did not pay all of the difference.
B. Option to Delete Domain for a full Refund.
Again, the Registry was very open and proactive in finding a good solution for all registrants. If you recall, we gave the option to delete and get a full refund for any customer who didn’t want to pay the high renewal fees for the Premium domains. These deletions were well past the add grace period and Minds & Machines were still open to make things right for registrants.
Learning these lessons, today, we at HEXONET will not add Premium Domains from a registry unless they are fully automated and follow a well established standard. In particular, if a registry does not support price verification via EPP, this is a blocker for us. Without well established standards, not only are there problems with new registrations, but also transfers (domains with high renewal prices, need a price check upon transferring).
Ultimately, we dropped the ball last year and made a human error. Given the volume and short release times between all the new gTLDs launching at the time, it could certainly happen. Nonetheless, we don’t want to take undeserved credit in solving the Premium domain issue. The truth is that Minds & Machines were willing and open to work with us in finding the best registrant friendly resolution.
Thanks,
Robbie
Robbie, I wonder whether the online pricing tool matches the needs of small resellers… in one very popular billing system(WHMCS), the only way I saw to add pricing was to actually have a full list of label:prices. So although I like EPP-pricing better, if that is not usable to resellers, only the larger setups with in-house built systems will be able to deal with premium names.
I think it’s fair to say that the confusion had to do with an industry-wide difficulty in setting up efficient processes in the face of hundreds of new top-level domains coming out at the same time, some with wildly different models. I think it’s also fair to say that the renewals today are providing a look into the situation as it existed a year ago — and today is a very different world where many of these issues have been worked out. For instance, M+M pricing information is now automated (EPP pricing extension) and registrars are now using EPP to check prices.
We very much appreciate registrars like Hexonet working with us to make sure things are right for the registrants. Although registrant accounts belong to the registrars, ultimately we consider registrants to be our registry customers too, for the simple reason that if they’re not happy then our business suffers, and that’s true no matter who is in contact with registrants. I think our goal and registrars’ goals are very much aligned — provide names to customers at prices that work for them, with predictability and openness. As we move forward I am certain that glitches like the one Mike got caught up in will become far less frequent if they are not removed altogether. As someone who dates from the prehistoric past of domain names, I can tell you that it took a long long time for all the kinks to be worked out of the .com system, and even more so with many ccTLDs. As an industry there’s a much better sense of co-operation between the registries (at least ours) and registrars, and we will all continue to approve.
If the concern is about what we charge for premium names, that’s another matter, and that’s something for the market to decide — as it always has been for any product, no matter what kind. We believe that the market will reward us for our decisions, but that is something that time will tell.
Antony
“confusion had to do with an industry-wide difficulty in setting up efficient processes in the face of hundreds of new top-level domains coming out at the same time, some with wildly different models”
If FORD put a Base-price window sticker in every permutation of the F-150, and hundreds of fully-loaded crewcab 4×4’s with wildly different premium upgrades were sold for the amount of a stripped work truck with no carpets, billing the customer an adjusted sticker during the 2nd year of ownership would be out of the question.
With Quarter.Horse, you let the valued customer keep/renew the domain at standard reg fee, with a simple contract that says IF the customer ever sells the domain, they owe The Registry premium renewals prorated to the duration the domain was held by the original owner from the 2nd year onward.
From what I pieced together from the article and the comments – here’s what I understand happened:
* The domains were supposed to be premium priced domains from the start
* Due to some technical challenge, the domains were sold at normal price by Hexonet, but they were billed the full price by the Registry (M&M).
* The registry refunded the higher fees to the registrar and asked them to notify registrants of the error (and the upcoming higher renewal fees?)
* The registrar informed the registrant of the error for the original registration(?)
* The renewal notices were sent at the originally intended higher renewal prices.
If this is correct, it goes to underline that there’s an issue with the different implementations of these various premium pricing models of TLDs – some of them originally provided lists, other providers provided the functionality via their own EPP XML extensions. At least one of the registries now requires registrars to re-confirm the premium renewal/transfer price with the transaction.
Still such a great thread with so many great comments after all these posts. The latest cracked me up in places too.
George Kirikos is one of the heroes of the industry. I’ve pretty much felt that way about him for many years now, too, don’t mind saying so now, and it’s long overdue. Thank God for people like Mr. George Kirikos. 🙂
The issue of registrants potentially and easily being screwed by failure, neglect or refusal to inform about future renewal pricing simply has to be addressed. Anything less than guarantees and protections regarding that is simply bad, even disgusting, yes, even reprehensible no less.
This I wonder too, though forgive my ignorance if I simply missed it by now but should not have. It may seem very obvious, but I’m not 100% sure that it 100% is: So if one does receive the information necessary to enable renewing for a 10 year stretch at current rates instead of being hit with a big increase, what happens next? Would there be an opportunity to renew for another 10 years after that, or would a big increase become unavoidable?
It means once informed of a price increase, you should be able to max out registration at the lower cost during a grace period, but after said grace period, the price goes up.
Next time you renew, it will be at the higher cost.
You can always hope the rethink the higher price, though after 10 years on a developed site, they may figure you have little choice but to wear the higher cost.
Any premium name sold will likely remain with a premium price attached, while any premium name unsold may in the end see its price lowered over time in hope of it selling and locking in a price (though they may try a one time discount offer first to lock someone in)
When I first read this article, it had just a comment or 2. Now it has 72 comments. I read that as 2 overlapping stories:
(1) the incident Mike Berkens describes with surprise renewal prices from Minds + Machines / Hexonet;
(2) a whole lotta pent-up frustration with nTLD pricing across the board.
Stepping back from the trees, what does the forest look like? Like this:
(1) Registrants suspicious of registries and registrars, who – it is felt – might jack up the renewal rates at any time.
(2) Registries and registrars that apparently can’t coordinate what to charge the rest of us or whether / when to tell us what’s going on. When problems arise, each denies responsibility and blames the other.
(3) Widespread skepticism (and even derision) for the premium renewal rates set by nTLD registries.
(4) .COMs often still available and priced far cheaper than nTLD alternatives (as Mike showed with BanFishing.com versus Ban.Fishing).
(5) Even domain experts like Mike Berkens cannot always manage their domains effectively amidst all the confusion about pricing. Therefore nobody can. Nobody. Certainly not the typical consumer.
(6) No guarantee that registrants will be informed of renewal price increases, which means registrants could see their websites or domain portfolios held hostage by extortionate registrars or registries at a moment’s notice. That’s assuming George Kirikos is correct. Since I see nobody contradicting him, I’m assuming that he is, in fact, correct.
ICANN saw fit to mandate that registries inform registrars about price changes. But the largest constituency – registrants – had no lobbyists around. Consequently, ICANN doesn’t oblige registries or registrars to keep us – the general public – in the loop. That’s an open door for abuse.
This variable pricing model is terribly unwieldy. Year 1 prices differ from later years – thanks to promotions or glitches. Renewal prices may not be disclosed clearly by registrars or aftermarket sales venues. In both cases, registrants can be trapped. Different prices within a given nTLD. Different pricing systems altogether going from nTLD to nTLD. Different prices year to year. In practice, nobody has sorted out this chaos. Many registrars still don’t even report domain availability correctly. Sedo still can’t recognize all of my nTLD domains as domains at all.
With so much pricing and availability confusion and misgivings about registry motives and registrar competence, it’s no wonder registrants continue to buy domains in familiar TLDs like .COM. There, at least, renewal prices are low, predictable, and stable – governed by price caps, unlike nTLDs, which (it seems) might cost $5 today and $5000 this time next year.
I do believe the nTLDs offer some good opportunities for branding, marketing, and (to a much lesser extent) domain investment. But clearly the nTLDs have been implemented in a clumsy messy way, which doesn’t help consumer confidence.
This kind of incident will only lead to the distust of the new GTLDs affecting growth of their market. Under the situation where huge numbers 5-6 digit random combination of letters with .com are waiting to be the next hitter, the new GTLDs will have to be more careful in their pricing policy.
On a complete side note, look what I just wrote about the ICANN transition issue that’s crept back into the back burner of people’s minds over here:
domainincite (dot) com/19342-us-gov-we-cant-support-icann-accountability-plan/comment-page-1#comment-355355.
Looks like I was in rare form. I even essentially quoted or paraphrased the pillar of common sense on one point that I first saw articulated by Michael Berkens over at Mr. Cyger’s DomainSherpa a while back. Perhaps I should have mentioned you there on that, Mr. B. 🙂
Now I do hope the other Mr. B won’t show up there to give me a hard time about it, though. 🙂
Where is DomenClature when you need him…
Interestingly I had registered a premium gtld earlier this year and just renewed at standard renewal price!
Amazing enough I got another list of domain names with premium prices that were not enforced the 1st year
These are today Minds + Machines domain names that I will not be renewing and my annual cost to renew:
bottled.beer $1100
filly.horse $1100
yearling.horse $295
saddles.horse $295
I am going to keep pro.rodeo for $125
Antony
Sorry but you don’t get to play this card:
“” think it’s fair to say that the confusion had to do with an industry-wide difficulty in setting up efficient processes in the face of hundreds of new top-level domains coming out at the same time, some with wildly different models. ”
The reason is as someone who has bought over 1,000 new gTLD’s the issue is 99% with Mind and Machines
I have not gotten one notice like this from any other registrar over any other domain I registered other than Minds _ Machines and from two different registrars.
While other registries had issues like having domains that appeared to be available for registration only to be on a reserved list, this mispricing issue just didn’t occur with the other major registries and at least in the case of ,club when they screwed up the pricing on a very valuable domain they ate the loss and let the registrant buy it for what they paid for it.
At least M=M should have treated this as a price change, give the 6 month notice and allow someone to pay the then renewal fee for the remaining 9 years.
Beyond the money, domainers get excited when they get a good domain, its part of our nature.
So yes when I got bottled.beer its was a “its cool, great pickup moment, maybe that lead me to try to get more new gTLD’s knowing that domains like that were available, so then you spend more time, more money and at the end of the day have a good feeling you got a good acquisition.
Now money aside all this works in reserve.
Now instead of feeling good that I got some of these domains, I’m disappointed that I have no lost the domain names, i also feel I lost a lot of time and effort with a false positive that these type of domains were being made available
So its not just about the money, its about doing the right thing and considering the long term ramifications of a mistake made by you on customers like me and of course I’m by far not the only one to have this issue another registrar told me there were hundreds of Minds + Machines mispriced domains last year on one string alone.
CLASS-ACTION;
I am looking to put together a class-action in a very big way. I have all the examples needed and one solid style of cause. This whole process is run by a cartel selling fool’s gold. Please contact me if you bought a new gtld. You will get more than just your money back. (peddlerofpower@gmail.com)
Ha! Good luck with that! Funny person.
Ps I love my new domains from new gtld’s, I don’t want my money back and they were cheap anyways.
Thanks for the great idea! I just registered ClassAction.Group