Dead Beat Buyers, I hate them.
From those agreeing in an email to buy a domain for a set price then to just refuse to follow through, to those that actually set up a Escrow.com transaction to buy a domain name even agree to the transaction, but never fund it, to those that agree to buy a domain for a price only to come back sometime later with an offer to still buy the domain but at a lower price than they agreed to originally.
All you have in business is your word, so if you agree to buy something then buy it.
If you set up an escrow.com transaction to buy a domain then fund it.
If you agree to buy a domain for $10,000 don’t come back with a $5,000 offer a month later.
Deadbeats, game players, people that go back on their word or as Francois from Domaining.com point out maybe they just changed their mind.
Personally I’m sick of it.
I want this to be the go to post for anyone in the industry that has ever had a dead beat buyer in the same fashion as Rick Schwartz blog post on RDNH which he updates every time a UDRP panel finds someone guilty of Reverse Domain Hijacking.
Some readers suggested that we should only mention the name and email address of the person and to withhold any further information like address or phone numbers. We have considered the readers position and removed everything but the name and email address of the “buyer” both from our post and the comments.
If you have such a person, company, buyer who has engaged in this behavior you may post a comment but you are responsible for your comment, again please only give the name and email address of the “buyer” and the domain.
This post hopefully will serve as a warning to all game players, buyers who offer to buy domains without having the money to buy or anyone else who tries to back out of a deal.
In the meantime here are just a few of my dead beat buyers in no particular order, it will be updated as we receive more information and comments.
If your on the list and have something to say feel free all responses and comments will be published.
1. Jonathan Kaplan email address: squawvacation@yahoo.com agrees to buy the domain onvideos.com for $15,000. On two separate occasions transaction are started and both of those transaction time out, when Mr. Kaplan fails to Fund the transaction.
2. Greenhill Group, LLC, and Bienvenu Marcus Mavakala agrees to buy the domain HomeLoanMortgage.com for $40,000 through BuyDomains.com, we agree to finance the domain and prepare a contract and note. After having the documents for several weeks, this week they notify the broker they are not going to proceed with the transaction meaning not only did they not follow through with an agreement but they wasted my time by preparing agreements.
3. Marcelo Olsak email addresses; marce@florida-brokers.com; olsak@bellsouth.net; agrees to buy newCondosMiami.com for $3,500 two escrow.com transactions started and time out for non-payment then offers to buy the domain for the reduced price of $2,500.
4. Perry Dee email address: austinmarketingguy@gmail.com offers to buy CatchMeUp For $11,300, offer accepted by myself escrow.com transaction started, escrow.com transaction times out.
5. Chetnesh MISHRA email address: chetnesh@gmail.com agrees to buy StudyinParis.com for $10,000, fails to start Escrow.com transaction, 3 weeks later says they can only pay $5,000.
1st update:
So some people like Francois from Domaining.com points out that some people might have just changed their mind.
How do you consider buyers that say they want to buy a domain and then back out because they changed their mind?
According to Francois he has hundreds of buyers that did not complete the transaction
What do you think?
2nd update:
In response to comments made by readers we have changed the post to remove any additional information other than the buyer’s name and email address.
You can read more about this above and below in the comments.
Moreover due to some of the readers comments especially that of Dr Hartnett we have removed Mr. Ding from the our list. Based on other domainer experience it seems that Mr. Ding is not a game player, dead beat buyer or mind changer, it seems as if we had an isolated incident and experience and therefore removed him from the list
For more information on this you can also read the comments below
We will keep updating this based on feedback and comments of readers.
Well well! I have one. I’ll email you the info in a day or two. Got to track the thread and assemble it for you. Which reminds, me, I owe you some stats from another conversation. LOL! 🙂
Bravo!!
Long overdue.
Naming names is the ONLY way to curb this.
Please include deadbeat buyers on NameJet and Snapnames as well.
and sellers…
I might have one for you next week.
(almost famous ex pro basketball player)
I hope it is ok to add someone else who does bad business.
Scott Latshaw backed out on IRA-Rollover.com for $4,500 and then went ahead and bought rollover.net instead after entering a contract via Sedo and then played additional games and never completed the transaction.
His Email:slatshaw@comcast.net
Scott Latshaw
Calling a deadbeat a deadbeat is a good thing but couldn’t this be considered a form of defamation and in promoting the post couldn’t you be held liable Michael?
Tony
The problem with Dead Beat Buyers on the auction houses are they do by a bidder handle and unless someone knows who they are for sure it’s a whole different ball game than when you are in direct contact with a buyer and have their email address and name and maybe even more info.
Might be a topic for another post, but the point of this is post is to call people out and hopefully use it to get people who otherwise would back out of future transactions from living up to their agreement to avoid being indexed on Google as a Dead Beat
Todd
Truth is a defense to liable.
However as you know we have an open door policy at thedomains.com and if someone has something to say then there comment gets posted we don’t edit comments.
There are so many reported buyers that don’t follow through I think something has to be done
This week alone I had three deals kick out of buydomains.com (only one of which I have the documentation for since i prepared the financing agreements after they said they were good to go)
I hear a lot of deals are agreed to and not concluded.
Time to do something about it.
Back to your point I can only speak for myself and my transaction and have the emails, cancelled escrow transactions, etc to back them up.
As for everyone else as I said if you want to be included in the main post I will need documentation.
If you make a comment it goes without saying but we will say it anyway that the commentators should have the documentation to back up the claim that the buyer agreed to buy, failed to buy and to support whatever else they say in their comment.
I know with your own deadbeat buyers there would be no libel because you have the truth in the documentation. I was asking if you could be held libel if a commentator bad mouths someone just to bad mouth them with no documentation to back it up couldn’t you be held libel for the comments even though you didn’t say them directly but because they are posted on your site under this specific post. I was just curious from a law standpoint.
#4 Bill Ding, or Bill King, or Bill Kim. Purchased several 5-figure domains over the past year or two, including iTrust.com ($30k), ChinaGuide.com ($20k), MadeInFrance.com ($15k), ChinaTrip.com ($21k).
The last one is now owned by Eric Chow, who is also the owner of 114.com, which sold earlier this year for $2.1 million.
Someone smarter than me could probably figure out the connection between those two individuals — Whois shows the same phone number for domains owned by Eric Chow and Bill Ding/King/Kim.
Todd I don’t know the answer to that.
I know that everyone is responsible for their own comments, I have no idea of how I can verify anything a commentator lives on this post or any other for that matter.
I have read some comments on this blog where people call other people a lot worse than a dead beat
I got offer of $ 8000 for Punjab.info made at escrow.ocm by a buyer through Godaddy/Sedo
aftermarket. Buyer was anonymous to me.
He/she started escrow transaction on Oct 9 2012 9:44AM PDT and it was cancelled by escrow on Nov 8 2012 6:27AM PDT as the funds never arrived.
Godaddy refused to disclose contact info of the buyer to me. Sedo said they have no info.
How can I get info about the buyer ?
Any one else having such experience ?
On Oct 17, 2012 I got $ 200,000 offer for TechnologyTimes.com at sedo which I accepted. Buyer did not respond or pay. This is the info sedo gave me about him
iumfaz
faizan sofi
Sedo refused to give email address or phone number.
@Davinderpal S Bhatia
iumfaz@yahoo.com
I get so many offers on my domains (squarely.com, potdealers.com, marijuana123.com, marijuanaguy, marijuanadealer), some buy now but WHERE THE FREAKING MONEY?
What the freaking point of listing at SEDO??
When someone emails me an offer, I always ask for phone # and address before I start negotiation. Without that, don’t waste my time.
Interesting to see executiveday on that list. They make a lot of fairly high dollar purchases on the major exchanges.
That’s why I’ve jumped onboard with Bodis.com. All my domains now link directly to a Sales page which allows anyone to buy directly with Paypal, Credit Card, or Wire Transfer. Admittedly, it takes negotiation out of the equation, but correctly priced, it should yield results in the long run.
Todd
What does that mean?
I need more than an email address and phone number
The commentor named Davinderpal S Bhatia said Sedo didn’t give him a phone number or email of the person that backed out of his TechnologyTimes.com deal so I found it for him. I put in the comment @Davinderpal S Bhatia so he would see it.
@3Dprintman—-
namepros owned by bodis keeps banning my account, so I don’t have confidence at Bodis.
Admin at namepros said I was doing something in the private message…wow–it means they can read my private messages?
Mike,
That Phone # and email given out by Todd is for my information and belongs to the dead beat buyer who made $ 200,000 offer to me for TechnologyTimes.com at sedo.
Bodis has issues too
http://www.thedomains.com/2013/06/19/buyer-beware-on-bodis-com-a-100-domain-turns-into-a-1m-domain-after-its-bought/
How about buyers and sellers who dodge broker fees?
Andrew
Well maybe he was having a bad day or week or decided not to buy the domain.
However last record email I have with him is us accepting the offer and that was the last we heard.
Anyway as I said in the post anyone is free to have a say and tell there side of the story
I have a table (email, and domain/reason) with a hundred buyers who never paid the purchased name after the escrow transaction was created. I shared it with Andrew Rosener last year and he said a good percentage were also present in his own list of not serious people.
…
@Andrew Alleman
I want to outline I have seen through my marketplace and escrow very serious and repetitive buyers at a moment fail to pay a name. In fact most of these people do not use to be scammers but people like you and me that at a moment changed their mind. This is why even if many times I have been very upset I never made the step to put public these persons. Now, maybe that makes sense to list a person who has been acting this way many times.
…
In a side note, many systems or marketplaces or even domainers does not offer the possibility to know the selling price of a domain without negotiate it or bid it.
And when you are not buying to invest but for a real project generaly you have a list of possible candidates you like and in fact while you do not know the price of each one you do not take your decision and it’s NORMAL!
Here here…Michael! It has’nt happened to me this year.(yet) But I usually get two or three of these clowns per year. I’ve made 2 sales this year without a hitch.While I would like to think I’m starting to see better “qualified” buyers…I’m sure somebody is just looking to get “outed”.Constructive channeling of frustration there sir.
@ Bulls / a.k.a. CloudEngineer
Quote reference “namepros owned by bodis keeps banning my account, so I don’t have confidence at Bodis.
Admin at namepros said I was doing something in the private message…wow–it means they can read my private messages?”
——————————————-
Without getting into to much detail, I would just like to remind you of the following (already pointed out in your NP support thread):
1.) NamePros has an infraction point system and your account exceeded the max allotted points which automatically banned your account due to multiple incidents over the course of the last 6 to 12 months. (Please refer to the NP TOS and FAQ for more information on the rules and how infractions work).
2.) When a Post or private message (either one) is reported by a member it also attaches a copy of the message (in this case, your message) being reported as a violation to staff for review. At that time the staff member reviewing the report conducts an investigation and determines if the situation warrants a warning, a negative point infraction, or in more serious cases, immediate account suspension. (Its this reporting procedure that allowed staff to see what you were sending to members that they felt warranted being reported.)
3.) You were instructed to contact us back after a few of your infraction points expired for an account review and provided the date.
Please feel free to contact us again on that date via your NamePros account for a review.
Thanks,
Eric Lyon
“How do you consider buyers that say they want to buy a domain and then back out because they changed their mind?
Unethical losers.
Unless they are going through a life or death situation or the seller cuts them a break…
Otherwise there shouldn’t be any distinction “special favors” between a one time buyer and an active buyer, only a “wishy washy” person will think that way.
Michael, would there be a name and shame on a potential buyer who had the intention to buy and had to pull out due to an unforeseen occurrence such as a family death, medical treatment, job loss etc…….
Do we also have a list starting for sellers who agree to sell at a price and when the buyers start up the escrow the sellers do not agree?
Surely the list can go on and on……….which reminds me, we recently had our home up for sale and 3 potential buyers visited our property and we had promising conversations stating that they would like to buy the property and will be offering the full amount as soon as they get back to the estate agents…………..guess what, still waiting!
Unfortunately I see this as part of life, if not a domain, a car, a home, a time share etc……..
Let’s get the lists up and running.
The Deadbeat Buyers have accomplices.
It is the Marketplaces themselves …the Auction Houses.
They may post notices or Claim that the buyers and sellers are entering a legally binding, enforceable contract. But, that’s where it ends. The Deadbeats KNOW they can get away with it.
Someday, there will be domain marketplaces that take serious measures to deter deadbeat buyers and even more serious measures to pursue the deadbeats that still manage to make it into the system.
Once that happens, it will go a Long way in adding a level of professionalism, respectability and security to the industry.
Michael,
Long time reader of your forum.
I really do not think listing the personal information of persons online to be ethical. Whether you post it yourself or allow the information to be posted in your comments.
This could get you in a lot of trouble, but also i think its lowering yourself to their level.
By all means posts names, but addresses, emails and phone numbers? In my opinion thats a step too far.
By all accounts ive been at both ends, people pulling out on me, and ive had to pull out of two deals in the past, which, in my opinion were of no fault of my own.
Theres no way of verifying the truth to stories people post here, i could post another domainers information to discredit them.
Whilst its a noteworthy topic, a blacklist is NOT the way to go, maybe a positive reviews of ethical domainers?
My two cents.
I know people i network with feel the same.
The best solution is…earnest money.
Put a down payment of 20% the price of the domain, after 30days of no show, you take the money.
Just like a real estate transaction.
Freddy
Thank you for your comments.
We have decided to follow your advice and removed anything but the name of the buyer and the email associated with the buyer from our post and in all comments.
We also have updated the post to clearly state that people can only post the name of the buyer and their email address in the comment section
Thanks again
Mike,
We have sold Bill Ding a number of 5 figure domains. (About 10 actually over the last two years. A few in groups of two together. GlobalDoctors.com and GlobalLawyer.com are two that come to mind.) Each time he has paid on time and i am told he usually responds within minutes or at the most, a few hours. I think he actually works from China although his contact info has him near Boston. He usually really lowballs our offering prices (which are old and high) and is a good and smart buyer and he has always paid immediately once the escrow.com process is started. One time he didn’t respond and never opened escrow after we agreed on a price. We sent him a follow up email and he apologized and immediately responded and opened escrow and funded it within 24 hours. My partner working with him felt he was just so busy he forgot and our deal slipped between the cracks of his many deals. I know that he is very busy buying names other than just our names and this has now been confirmed by others on this thread. No doubt he has deep pockets. Would love to know the entire story behind him. Would make a great DNJournal article Ron. Who is Bill Ding and where is his money from and how much is going into domains. Just thought I would share this from our side. Did you write to him and ask him his intentions? Could your deal have just slipped between the cracks on his side ? I have only interacted with him once or twice personally by email but I am copied on all the correspondence from our office and he seems very business like and all into what he is doing. Very professional. Never flaky. Just thought I would give you that side to it all. Happy to share our correspondence with him with you privately Mike if you think that will help.
A side note to add to this mix is that I have found people do change their minds and have buyers remorse. That is just a fact of life in it all unfortunately. I can’t tell you how many times in our Gemstone businesses (www.GlobalGemstone.com) over the years that people buy a gem, even very expensive ones and then they want to return it after a few days and in one case, after a number of years. That is never fun. Especially after commissions and bonuses have been paid on those sales. One of the things I love about the domain business is that no one has ever returned a domain although we do offer a one year money back guarantee on one of our websites. We have always just looked at gemstone “returns” as a cost of doing business and keeping up our reputation. Especially in the gemstone business, the fly by night gem dealers don’t offer a money back guarantee because they don’t care about their reputations. They just make a killing on a few stones and then disappear back into their dark holes. Reputation, name and honor is something that is earned and it has its price at times. For Domainers, part of the price we pay is having to deal with non-payers and deadbeats from time to time.
We have had over 9 “no pays” deals in our domain business this year alone across our sales websites. Seems to becoming more and more common with us for some reason and I was very happy to see this post Mike so that I know that others are going through this too. Misery loves company. 🙂 Is it the Economy? Karma? Sign that the domain market is scared about the GTLD’s. Anybody’s guess. Just happened to us recently with the sale of GlobalCranes.com, GlobalExplosives.com, GlobalCurrency.com and GP.net. All separate buyers so it isn’t a conspiracy. There seems to be two types of people that do this. One group agrees to the price and then just never start the escrow process (they just like to negotiate and then cut out) and then there are those that start the escrow process and then they just don’t fund or don’t pay. The latter group I think just has trouble getting the funds together or they have second thoughts. Buyers remorse.
The part that gets me is that in both cases, they negotiate like they are hungry for the name and then somehow they just flake out and turn cold. Very frustrating for all concerned on our end because, as you know, time and energy are invested to get to that point. I think, in many cases, it is just buyers remorse. They get scared after they think about it and after the negotiation is over and they have more time to think more clearly and freak out. They want the name, so they negotiate like they want it but when they have to come up with the funds, they have second thoughts or they just don’t see the value or don’t want to spend the money. They really have no risk or downside in not funding the escrow and backing out. They aren’t really accountable. I think that is what you are trying to do here with this post Mike and I thank you for bringing it up. I don’t know that it can really be stopped or policed when you think about it. It is a fundamental human ethics flaw and an unfortunate fact of human nature. People change their minds and are only accountable when they have to be or when they are forced to be. Can we really force them or shame them into doing something they don’t want to do? Will it really stop those that have no ethics? Can’t they hide under a different name and remain unaccountable?
Maybe we should really qualify buyers more upfront but you always risk turning them off if you are too curious or too demanding while you are in the process of selling them. It is a fine line and we never want to spook a real buyer because we have been burned on other deals in the past. That isn’t good business either.
We may have to just accept the fact in our industry, in our business, and with the current sales processes we all use, that our buyers are not really accountable and we sell and then get paid at their mercy. We can try and police them but what would keep them from using an alias all the way through the buying process until they pay. Then when they flake out, we get together and share info and in reality, we are left with big lists of aliases, still with no real recourse.
In summary, forgive me if this seems weird, but I am OK with them not paying on some level. Am I crazy. No. not really. I love money as much as the next guy but I don’t look at it like I have the control that some of us think here. I figure each name we sell, is a pure gift. Heck, we paid almost nothing for these names and they are paying us HUGE margins above our cost. Wish we could do that in all of our businesses. Each name we sell, I feel like it is a miracle of some sort. For years we almost didn’t sell anything, just renewed or sold enough to pay towards renewals and keep asking prices sky high. IF THEY PAID OUR PRICE FINE, OTHERWISE, HIT THE ROAD, was our attitude. Year after year. Many years having to supplement the renewals with big six figure renewal checks. Then we started monetizing and later proactively selling and it really amazed me as the checks started rolling in. There were many surprises. Big checks for names I didn’t think anyone would want. TRAFFIC on names i would have never dreamed would get such traffic. At times it feels like we just won the lottery. We ask a big price and they pay it. We wonder then if we should have asked more money. Would we have gotten it if we did? Then we have these people that waste our time and don’t pay when they agree to pay. The deadbeats as they are called here. Yes, it is very disheartening and it even hurts if you celebrate too soon, which I must admit here, I have done more than once in the past. Think you have sold something and so then buy something else, only to find out they didn’t fund the escrow, at the same time as you have to turn around and fund your escrow on your new purchase. Two lessons here maybe. Don’t count the chickens before they hatch and maybe we aren’t in as much control as we would like to be or think we are when all is said and done.
In the big picture though, isn’t this all part of the game. Isn’t this part of the cost of doing business? There are deadbeats in every industry. There are stand up guys and gals that you can trust your life on their word and then there are those that think that doing good business is only judged by how much money you extracted from the other guy and the method doesn’t matter. The one with the most cash wins. Those people get theirs and I just don’t feel that I have to be the one to give it to them. That is way beyond my pay scale. If I judge every person I disagree with, I would be a very unhappy and bitter person. I trust there is a higher order to it all. This isn’t metaphysics. This is just a basic law of physics. For every action there is an equal and similar reaction. I trust that in the end, the way I do good honorable business will come back to me in the form of good fortune and good honorable business. If I get it wrong, that will show up in some way too. Maybe as a no pay. Maybe as a deadbeat.
I enjoy every time I get a check or get paid for anything. I really do. Even an insurance refund or whatever. I love getting checks and I absolutely love money. I really love money. I really do. Flow baby flow. The more money the better. Let it rain money. I just love every bit of it. You have to love money. It is beautiful and wonderful. BUT, I am not under the delusion that I can control or police all of this or control all the ways money can and can’t come to me other than controlling my own actions and behavior. Control of others actions is way above my pay scale. Good stuff happens and bad stuff happens. If it is happening to me, then I have to own it as mine 100%. I can’t just own the good stuff. I have to be a man and take full responsibility for all that comes my way and knocking at my door. Good and bad. That doesn’t mean I have to like the bad stuff, I am just neutral to it. Non reactive. I try not to react to it. If I hate it, and react negatively towards it, and get all worked up and mad, I create more of it. If I accept it as my due and move on, I have a better chance of getting back to the place where the good stuff happens more than the bad stuff and that is where I want to be at the end of the day. If I react to the bad stuff with negativity and hate and blame and judgement, then I just ordered up more stuff for myself of a like kind negative nature.
I want the good stuff. I want the money. Cash baby cash. Let it flow. I want people to pay crazy good prices for all my domain names and everything else I have for sale. I don’t want to get in the middle of that flow of goodness to me by trying to control a process that I really have no control over other than watching my own actions and doing business in the most honorable way I know how so that good business of a like kind flows back to me. Judging others and fighting them and bring havoc into their lives is a never ending slippery slope. They will get theirs without me and no one gets away with anything. They will choke on a chicken bone or find a tumor somewhere or just plain have to live in the negative world that they created for themselves but at the end of the day, they will get theirs. No doubt. Not my job to make them suffer or get my revenge. I have my own suffering and ” stuff” to deal with and that is more than enough for me. Why would I want to create more suffering that would just have to come back to me when I could be creating something positive and great that also will come back to me in the form of wonderful cash?
Yes, the “no payers” and deadbeats are a bad deal for us all and will be punished and will not get away with the havoc they create, it is just a question of whom will deliver that justice to them and if I believe that I deserve the big checks, I also have to believe that I have some less than desirable stuff to atone for myself that I deserve and the sooner I get through the bad stuff and get it over with and I get on to the next buyer, the closer I am to getting my next big check. If I stop and roll around in the mud with them, I am bound to get dirty and the more practical side of things is I don’t even know who they are. I just have email addresses and names but no assurance that they are who they say they are. Kind of like chasing hackers and domain thief’s. Life is short. It is going to be over before we know it. Whatever we put our attention on, grows strongest in our lives. I don’t feel good chasing these deadbeats. I never signed up for the Domainer’s FBI. I am old enough now to realize that the bad guys get theirs with or without me. For me, this is the time to make money and enjoy myself. Just say’in. Good luck and good fortune to all.
Thanks Mike. Good thread and good to have a chance to think this all out and know that we aren’t the only ones dealing with these types of people. Let’s move on and make some money…..Who out there besides Bill Ding wants to buy some good names at fair prices that you are willing to fund while in escrow?
Dr. Chris
Thank you for the information on Mr. Ding
Based on your experience with Mr. Ding and some others who have commented I went ahead and removed him from the post.
His history as you describe is not one of a dead beat buyer or a mind changer so my experience with him must have been a very isolated case.
As for the rest of your post very insightful and appreciate all the time you invested in sharing your thoughts
“All you have in business is your word, so if you agree to buy something then buy it.”
How many of these cases actually involve a legal purchase agreement with all the parties, terms and conditions laid out? Words are just words.
Anyway, it’s just money – it hardly forces you or Christopher Harnett to change dinner plans.
Just a note to say that in our banned table we also have around 60 names of SELLERS who did not delivered the name after been sold, so we cannot only blame buyers to not always act seriously. And here I am not talking about sellers who listed a name by error, or forgot to remove a sold name from a marketplace, really sellers who changed their mind once the sale was done.
…
To the question above about why unserious people are not sued, just imagine we are talking there about a seller who can be from China, and a buyer who can from Bolivia, people who did not verified their identity (except they used eCOP.com as escrow), so people you are not even sure who they are, where they live, unsure their identity was not usurpated. On top of that everyone know the horrible cost of legal actions and it’s worst when the seller and buyer even fully identified are not from the same country, or countries who do not accept the same laws. And if it was not enough I remember to everyone that +90% of all domain sales are under $5,000 so does it make sense to take the risk to sue and spend probably dozen thousands dollars in legal costs? And the cherry is marketplaces generally only get 5 to 15% sales commissions so just hundred dollars, so this is the reason why they don’t use to sue any seller or buyer and this should never happen as a rule for sure.
In conclusion Michael approach is probably a solution to refrain unethical behaviors if it is done carefully and being sure to only list those who really deserve it.
excellent topic.
wikileaks of deadbeats/game players.
hehehe
unknown
So you don’t need a formal legal document to have an enforceable contract.
A string of emails is a written document and if someone writes you and offers you $5,000 to buy a domain and you say DEAL or SOLD you have a written contract.
Once one party agrees to buy and the other agrees to sell via email you have a deal.
Contracts can also be oral but of course you would have to proof it
@BullS UP IN SMOKE ..lol
@Michael my feeling is, unfortunately as with most sales deals, it’s par for the course.
perhaps we should be asking for a non-refundable deposit.
You know Dr. Hartnett is one respected man when he makes a post that size and nobody bothers to point it out.
I agree with Berkens here.
There is nothing- I mean NOTHING- I hate worse than a crawfish (as we call deal welchers, where I come from). I’m a reasonable guy, I understand that things happen, that freak shit arises or that plans change but I swear to god, if I were to believe the excuses made by the crawfish buyers when I sold my 86 Testarossa, the car was single-handedly responsible for the death of one father, one child, two divorces, a catastrophic house fire and one partner looting a business and running off to South America… all excuses I received from people who claimed to be airtight committed to buying it until it came time to come across with the cash.
Also, one other thing I’d like to point out, since Berkens mentioned Francois claiming that ‘maybe they just changed their mind’.
I find this lack of business integrity appallingly standard in ‘certain countries’ which I won’t name, but have done business with many times in the past. Seems there are some cultures out there who are solid as pigshit when it comes to reliability in a transaction and are unashamed about it. God knows we fuck plenty of other stuff up but I guess this is one thing we do right here in the good old US of A. We don’t tolerate that garbage. If you commit to a deal, you are expected to follow through and if you don’t, your business reputation will take a hit (unlike in ‘certain other countries’ where such business is par for the course).
Rant over, but I am on board with those who are sick and tired of these time-wasting shitheads committing to deals, then backing out. If you can’t conduct business responsibly in the big-boy world or you’re from some Crapistan that tolerates that bullshit, please, stay the fuck away from me.
What ‘Gordo” said…
It seems some people are saying is OK to negate on a contract if you are a frequent buyer,
the issue is not: if it happens or not? is it the norm? or should it be pursued or not?..is it worth it?
but should these dead beats be exposed? (buyers and sellers)
Francois, it appears you had a different stance back when the sale of 25 . com didn’t go thru…
As a seller I don’t want to be represented by a broker that thinks it’s ok for ‘SOME’ not to fulfill their contractual obligations, if you want to forgive someone that neglects your own personal transactions that a personal choice but keep in mind you are setting precedent.
On regards to what I was suppose to report ( SEDO pending purchase), the seller did the right thing and surrender the domain.
I can’t speak for other communities when it comes to breaching binding sales agreements, however I can touch base with how NamePros operates and deals with such issues. This may assist with others performing similar tasks or maybe even someone can contact me with more ideas on how to combat it if you feel we are missing something in our process.
1.) All Auction Bids are binding agreements.
2.) All offers are binding agreements. Optionally a buyer may add an expiration date as to when their offer expires.
3.) All fixed price “SOLD” posts are binding agreements.
4.) All domains listed for sale by a seller in an auction are a binding agreement to sell if a bid occurs within their guidelines. (Multi-forum post auctions are NOT allowed).
5.) We have a warning and infraction system in place. Each profile is allowed up to 20 infraction points before their account auto closes. Each infraction type is worth a different amount of points and habitual infractions accumulate more points than the previous. Infractions have different life spans before they expire and the points no longer count as active.
6.) When a seller or Buyer reports a deal that went south we first try to mediate between both parties to assist in the motivating the parties to complete the transaction.
7.) In the event one party refuses to abide by the binding agreement, they may receive a Bad Business infraction (15 Points) + negative itrader from the other party involved in the deal. Such an infraction has a 12 month life span on the first offense. Any further infractions within that time that meet or exceed 5 points will push the account over the limit and cause the account to auto close.
8.) In extreme cases there is an option to close an account on the spot for investigation.
9.) Naturally in a Make Offer or Fixed price environment there are muti-listings at other marketplaces. Sellers are not bound to sell for a price lower than they expect and are welcomed to keep looking for better offers. With fixed Price, there are times a domain may sell somewhere else and the seller hasn’t had time to update their listing yet, resulting in a buyer feeling they were mistreated. We understand how the process works and explain it to the buyer if they report the incident. Unless the seller engaged the buyer and made direct commitments to sell to them prior to selling elsewhere and the buyer was within the time constraints, then it’s not the sellers fault.
I’m not sure what others are doing to help combat non-payers and non-sellers, however the above is our attempt at a preventative measure. Naturally we evaluate each situation independently from one another. If anyone has more ideas on a fair way to combat abuse from both buyers and seller, feel free to contact me at any time.
Eric Lyon
I’m every bit as sick of deadbeat buyers as the next domainer. So far in 2013, I’ve personally seen tens of thousands of dollars in aborted transactions — where the buyer vanishes after agreeing to a price, after setting up a transaction, or even after initially funding it through Paypal (ongoing story there).
However, I do have some concerns about allowing domainers to call out deadbeats here without their claims being subject to verification. I’ve run across an alarming number of backstabbing, backbiting domainers who toss around unsupported accusations left and right. Sooner or later, they’ll use this platform to attack some of their colleagues.
Free speech is 100% ok by me, even when I’m the guy getting slandered (which has happened now in 2 different domainer forums). But it seems to me that the person being called out should be notified and given the chance to respond without any censorship. After all, the truly honest and “brave” thing to do when calling someone out in a public blog is to contact them letting them know you’re doing it. That provides a dis-incentive for trigger-happy complainers, since their claims can be challenged and their reputation impaired if it’s found that their claims are false.
In a format such as TheDomains.com, how do we know that the so-called deadbeat has been given a fair chance to respond? And if they haven’t, then they may not be deadbeats at all. In that case, maybe this platform will just degenerate into semi-public name calling.
Where I come from your word is your bond, win or lose, once you’ve agreed on a price, it has to be fulfilled, both from the buying side and the selling side.
But I’ve been in business long enough not to bother with the non-payers, that’s like throwing good money after bad. We just add them to our personal black list and move on.
Dr. Hartnett’s comment is spot on, life’s too short to waste time on such people and if you do, they win. Just work for your own good stuff, let karma take care the losers.
“you don’t need a formal legal document to have an enforceable contract.”
You don’t NEED anything but it puts you in a better positions if you do things a little better. If your email has the Domain, the price, the method of transfer, the date of transfer, the date of payment, you’ll be better off, etc. You can have a contract via email but why not make it a contract? Perhaps you do, many don’t. I’m sure the bigger sales have more care and diligence taken than the small sales.
Or more simply you could say a deal is not formalized until an Escrow process has been accepted as this covers the basic purchase elements including an examination period.
Anything before that point is really just talk if you don’t have the details netted out. Email is accepted as a method of contract but it still needs to have requirements that make it clear what is happening.
Consider:
$5K sold. Then I’ll pay you next year. Deadbeat? or Incomplete contract?
What about premium .TV? What if that’s not declared until after agreement?
What if the domain turns out to be a misspelling? What if the email didn’t have it as a misspelling? Contract invalid? At what point – after transfer? After cash transfer?
What if the domain turned out to be a clear TM and you didn’t notify them? Caveat Venditor?
The contract protects you as well as the buyer.
What if the payment is challenged? You really just want a crappy email with the word “sold”?
I’m sure you are better than most at being organized but some domainers get a simple offer and think that’s a deal. Take Sedo. The buy it now is legally binding; however, the contract is not actually signed on the button push, it happens later after you, the seller, acknowledge any potential issues with the domain.
There are points in the process where you do renege on a contract, I just think that in a lot of cases it doesn’t get that far and people are too quick to label someone a deadbeat. Sometimes shit happens, you have to follow up to make sure it’s a true deadbeat case and not some other factor. Sometimes life has funny twists and once a business is tarnished online it’s hard to clean it up – you in just this one post have already had to remove names so the method you are choosing isn’t foolproof.
The best fix to the problem is not to simply name deadbeats, it’s to organize and sort out the purchase procedure and only then go the vigilante path.
Of course, most people will disagree because that’s too much work, too much effort, and why should I do that ? These people just need to pay.
@Joseph
You’re paranoid 🙂 This system is flawless.