We have discussed on numerous occasions, TDNAM (Godaddy) is allowing the sale of trademarked domains on its site.
However today they have gone further.
They have hit a new low.
Not only are they allowing the auction of cnnnews.tv though the TDNAM platform but they have actually issued a “Certified Domain Appraisal” for the domain.
They can no longer claim ignorance or simply state that they can’t be expected to review each domain submitted for auction to see if there is a trademark violation.
Here the domain was basically thrown in their face when an appraisal was ordered.
Godaddy gave the domain owner a range of what they determined the domain was worth, in their certified opinion, as the world’s largest registrar.
What should they have done?
The right thing.
Just what you or I would have done if someone came to us with the domain, tell them square and true, hey buddy this domain violates a federally registered trademark, its worthless and we are not going to help you sell it or have any involvement in it and here’s your $15 back.
Instead Godaddy took the $15 for the certified appraisal, the domain owner with Godaddy’s blessing and opinion that the domain has value, put it up for sale on TDNAM where is now has 2 bids with over 2 days to go.
Moreover its not just one of the listing on TDNAM, but because it has the certified appraisal the domain is in bold print and has the appraisal symbol by it.
This week Andrew from DomainNameWire.com had a post on “How the Domain Industry Can Clean Itself Up”
While raising a great discussion about the issue, no specifics we given.
We are going to give them.
If we have any hopes of avoid legislation we must clean up our own mess first and quick.
Remember the congressional hearings on baseball. Congress basically told Professional Baseball clean up your mess with steroids or we will do it for you and you won’t like what we do.
Baseball reacted quickly and passed sweeping rules where there were none.
They had no choice.
Well folks it the top of the 9th and the ball is in our court.
We have the TRAFFIC New York show to hash this out, but when congress comes back in January a bill like the Snowe bill, or worse will be introduced.
You will not like it.
So let’s take this little bit of time we have to solve this problem.
Here’s what needs to happen:
A. Parking companies must refuse to park any domain that infringes on a trademark. If parking companies need to hire a full time person to police this, then that’s the cost of doing business. If trademark domain holders (I will not call these people domainers) can’t make money on parking trademarked domains, the incentive for registering and holding them is gone.
B. Google and Yahoo have to block trademark domains from their system. Not all domains go through parking companies. Many go to Google directly through ad sense pages. Neither Google nor Yahoo can make money on trademark domains anymore. Game over.
C. Auction companies must not allow trademark domains to be sold on their platform. If a trademark domain holder cannot sell their domains on any of the auction platforms, then their incentive to register and hold such domains is greatly diminished.
D. Domain registrars have to peel off domains that violate trademarks and not allow them to be dropped and auctioned off. Registrars now regularly peel off the best expired domains for their own benefit, so they can remove the trademark domains at the same time for the benefit of the industry.
E. Registries upon releasing a new extension must allow all trademark holders to apply for their trademark domains for free (see out post of last week) and in any event not allow trademarked domains to be auctioned off. We all see what an embarrassment the industry suffered that the highest selling .me domain was a trademark infringing domain. This cannot be allowed to continue or be repeated when new extensions are released.
This is just a start. It won’t solve the problem altogether but will indicate to lawmakers that we are taking steps to solve the problem and may take the heat off them to take action.
The question is now how does it happen? Who spearheads this effort? Who enforces the rules?
We all have to make it happen. We have to insist on it.
Parking companies, we are their customers, without domainers they have no business. Same for auction houses and registrars. Same for new registries.
In all cases it’s our money that drives the business and we need to insist that these companies do the right thing.
It’s not only the right thing for domainers but for them as well, although they seem to be too greedy to realize it.
The first of these companies that stand up and make a statement and do the right thing will be remembered for saving the industry.
The companies who refuse to do so will be remembered for killing it.
So on the money my friend …
One word comes to mind….Despicable!
The irony of it all is they have actually been nominated for a TRAFFIC (WADND) Seal of Approval. All I can say is FAT CHANCE! The only nominated company in which folks complained about their nomination. Not only do they not meet the standards, these type companies are a detriment to the entire industry. Domainers that support this nonsense need to rethink things IMO! Vote to stop this with your wallets and move your names to a registrar that is more domainer friendly. THAT is the ONLY way to get their attention!
The abuse going on needs to be exposed and this will be a topic of discussion on several fronts at TRAFFIC. Time to BURY THESE ABUSERS!
For once Rick – I agree with ALL your points :-)))
Great Information; appraisals are useless/worthless in evaluating a name in the domain industry, if someone uses an appraisal as a reference tool to purchase a domain name, they should think twice before doing so. In my opinion no parking company, auction house or domain registrar should be in the business of providing appraisals for a fee or not a fee-APPRAISALS ARE USELESS/WORTHLESS in evaluating Virtual Real Estate.
I JUST came from tdnam, after I saw the cnnnews.tv than a minute later saw this post while at the same time I was shaking my head at why they actually issued an appraisal! I’m glad you said something!!!
John
http://unplain.com
Scott,
You are correct – Appraisals are useless in their current format however there is a possibility (although extremely remote) of providing decent appraisals some day. We are looking into but the math and metrics behind having sold information to gauge some kind of baseline but it is extremely difficult. A lot of appraisals are based on data about how many Google results, if it’s included in yahoo – stats which I don’t consider much relevant at all. So many other factors including the nature of the industry (plane charters produce much smaller results than funny videos but the profit margins are much higher), competition (is the .com being used) – so many factors that make it almost impossible to get a true value as a BASIS – not a definitive value, just a reasonable comparable based on the market. I’ve spent many hours trying to figure out even a half worth solution and its hard (if not impossible).
The issue here is much greater than appraisals.
GoDaddy are sales people – that’s the problem.
They are not responsible citizens of the domain community and leaders must be.
To issue an appraisal on CNNNews.tv is just stupid because it has zero value (only to CNN – if they use it and that value is reg fee) and they know it –
The concerns are industry leaders should help protect and not participate in any father dilution of negative stereotypes of domain names and their owners.
I personally would love to see the ICA proactively help combat this issue. One of the reasons we have not joined the ICA is because I’m still not sure what they do. Over the last 3-4 months I think we have received 2 emails from them.
This is a prime subject in helping capulate the industry forward by combating publicly the industry’s desire to clean up the “trademark” mess.
I don’t want to turn this into an ICA issue because I know they are doing good for the industry but I’m just not sure what that good is. If someone asks me what they do – I can’t really tell you but I do know its positive.
Get an issue like this to the forefront of the cause, talk the side almost all respective domainers agree with and ICA would be able to raise enough money from new / existing members to hire someone to proactively engage and promote the cleaning up.
Maybe even have ICA team up with Moniker (probably the most respectabel registry) and have them ask at the end of a checkout – would you like to contribute $1 to the ICA fund asssited at helping domainers … their words not mine.
All domainers need to do something to show their outrage and desire to be part of making this industry better and we have a voice in the ICA – maybe this is the time for them to speak a little as I think we are all ready to listen, help and assist with this matter.
It’s a topic which is in our news every day.
Engage all domainers in helping the industry
Just my thoughts and I commend Michael Collins and the ICA for the good they have done so far but maybe its time to add another element.
Bottom line is the only we to clean up this industry is if we do it.
OHHH, I know what happened.
PRESS RELEASE:
Godaddy is trying out a new covert program where they are using an unwanted dumb monkey affectionately named Mini-Bob (after Bob Parson). This monkey has been trained to use automated appraisal tools that drops a banana from the ceiling each time he has successfully pushed the right button to issue an appraisal. Since he can’t differentiate between trademarks and generics, a waiver was given to him in the form of banana peels that indemnifies him against any future lawsuits.
monkeyappraisals.com is available
I couldn’t agree more. This type of “willful ignorance” doesn’t hold up in courts and it will be to the detriment of us all if something isn’t done. It’s not like GoDaddy etc. doesn’t have the resources to do it right.
Another culprit that leads to thousands of trademark infringing registration is…domain suggestion engines.
Go to any registrar and check em out. These programs perform searches on the domain you tried to register and offer suggestions based on the results. These results invariably include combinations of trademarked terms.
Domainers (should) know enough to not register these obviously infringing domains but what about the average Joe that sees that “SoftwareGoogle.com ” is available? (An actual suggestion from Name.com’s engine.
Not only do these average people waste money on a worthless reg, but when someone eventually clues them they are now turned off from our whole industry.
Alan, good points and I agree with your thoughts; again in my opinion no parking company, auction house or domain registrar should be furnishing appraisals, though they are useless, as well conflict of interest comes in play.
The CNN domain is clearly a mistake because of CNN’s presence online.
However, many trademark instances are not so clear-cut, with trademarks often applicable for only a discrete product or service niche, sometimes only within a defined market or country.
Cowboys.com might seem like a trademark violation to some people, so before we have the owners of Cowboys.com deprived of their investment, we need to back up and stop shooting at the hip.
Does anyone remember the Snow Bill?
In regard to search companies being called upon to block the use of trademarks as keywords, each of the four major players in the U.S. already have systems in place to allow trademark holders to request that this be done for their individual trademarks.
Those systems aren’t perfect, but how many of us would live in fear if search companies became more proactive? Do we want the search companies determining our fates in life – any more than they already are?
Some parking companies already bar domains that they find infringe on trademarks. Afternic, for example, barred one domain and then allowed the same domain with a different TLD to remain. So the system is uneven. Life is uneven.
GoDaddy is an attractive target for criticism because they are the industry goliath and because they have policies that a lot of us find objectionable, such as the 60-day lock on transfers after a Whois update. It’s harder to gain traction outside the industry for overturning that policy, so instead GoDaddy becomes a target for small individual mistakes that inevitably occur at large institutions.
Let he who has never held a trademark throw the first stone.
Jeremy
Great point and something I did not think about.
New users especially use the name spinners if there first choice is taken.
None of them should give a domain that violates a trademark.
Some simple programing and blocking of terms would prevent it
Wonder if they’d appraise a Godaddy TM.
NoNames
“Let he who has never held a trademark throw the first stone.”
The issue is much bigger than that and more important.
Yes its the clear obvious trademarks, the same type of domains that all our posts (and some guest posts) have criticized that are at issue.
“Do we want the search companies determining our fates in life”
Do you want congress too.
We need to start somewhere and we need to start before congress mandates that we start.
That is the choice we have.
Doing business is usual is not going to be an option.
We police ourselves or the real police (actualy the feds) will.
Companies should not have to “request” that there domains be blocked. The trademarks we are talking about are just like cnnnews.tv.
We
Elliot
Why don’t you give them $15 and try
MHB is correct, we do need to police ourselves. But that’s different than banning all domains that contain a trademark.
GoDaddy needs to take its role as the industry leader more seriously. A little responsibility with those revenues…?
In addition, I believe the domain forums should close threads of obvious TM sales. There is a thread on NamePros right now about this, but they don’t seem too excited about policing TM threads.
http://www.namepros.com/namepros-info-and-suggestions/510785-lets-ask-namepros-close-obvious-tm.html
If someone created a thread for the sale of drugs they would close the thread, if someone said something exceeding rude or offensive they would close the thread, so if TM’s are for sale they could easily close those threads.
If it is questionble as to whether it is a TM, then maybe they should tell you to sell it somewhere else.
I think these forums should at least take some proactive steps of some kind if they don’t want to do this.
johnny
Of course you are right.
Its the mind set across the board that has to change.
If domainers have no interest in putting pressure on the parking companies, registrars and the rest to change, then as I said Congress will make the change
Keep calling them on this bs!
It’s not funny any more when it comes out of my pocket and yours.
CNNNews.tv – what a domain name – Interesting response to that post
Has anyone sent a copy of this thread to Bob Parsons? Maybe his s–t DOES smell.
It is all about the bottom line $$$
My Store
Its always about the money but there is smart money and stupid quick money.
There is a right, smart way of doing business and then there is the other
This is a hard issue to gauge. I think it’s time for the industry to start policing itself, including forums, auction spots and blogs.
On the other hand, the trademark violation often comes from the content on the domain and not the domain itself. And that’s just impossible to predict and police.
ChromeTemplates.com depends on the content. Even though it’s obvious that it’s intended to be the Chrome browser, there is still that chance that it’s not. And you won’t know until content is up and by that time it’s too late.
MySpaceTemplates.com also depends on content. Obviously anyone spending the kind of money on a domain like this will try to capitalize on MySpace, but all they have to say is that they are planning on selling Space-themed Templates for WordPress, Drupal, etc. And you just can’t argue against that.
So in other words, I think it’s time for the industry to police itself, only I can not offer any legitimate realistic ideas in how to do so 😛
It’s obviously a problem that should be discussed. And I think the creative minds that work in this industry can come up with a solution if they work hard enough at it.
Hi Michael,
Thank you for bringing up this important topic to ICA leadership. There is a lot of agreement that this clear abuse of trademarks is damaging our industry. However, baseball and steroids may not be a good example for us because Major League Baseball has absolute authority over professional baseball. No one including ICA or even ICANN have that kind of control of domain names. If we did, this would be a lot easier.
If we had absolute authority like the baseball, we would still have to distinguish between obvious trademark abuse and the millions of domains that have legitimate generic value but are also similar to a trademark. I know that you do not suggest that every word or acronym that is trademarked anywhere in the world be removed from aftermarket auctions? It is sure that this would eliminate nearly all single word domains and two and three letter domains.
You talk about cnnnews.tv being an example of a name that clearly targets a famous brand and I agree, but would cnn.me be so obvious? I am not sure, but I am sure that you could find people who would argue both that it is clearly targeting a famous brand and others that it could fairly represent some other personal use. Should someone really be prevented from acquiring cnn.me for their non-infringing personal or business use because the registry is required to give the name for free to CNN? What about abc.me? There are 56 businesses in the Orlando phone book that are branded ABC.
You have listed for sale on Most Wanted Domains several two and three letter domains. I randomly checked several of those against the US trademark database. All that I checked have US trademarks associated with them. I am not arguing that we should not do something about obvious trademark abuse, but that this is not a simple problem and we need a lot more community involvement to find a solution. Thank you for taking the first step by bringing this problem to light. I challenge other industry leaders, especially those with parking services, registrars and aftermarket businesses to participate in a solution by adding to the discussion.
Best regards,
Michael Collins
Internet Commerce Association
I’m sure we all agree this is a complicated issue and no one would suggest that all domains containing TMs or that are similar to TMs should have action taken against them carte blanche. I myself have often taken issue with decisions regarding TM laws (or at least interpretations of said laws) and especially regarding their applications to domain holders.
I’ll hold up for example the Nissan.com fiasco of several years ago in which the domain was taken away from Uzi Nissan after being accused of cybersquatting (imagine!) when the domain was his last name and his business was founded when the car company was still named Datsun.
This is the world we live in and like it or not we have to play by the rules AS THEY HAVE BEEN DEFINED or else we as an industry and as individuals will be trampled upon by those with deeper pockets. And there are always deeper pockets.
This is an old conversation.
What’s different about this thread and what Michael has pointed out so well is that although this issue is 99% gray area, there are SOME cases when (as Lewis Black says) we can all just look at something and agree what reality is, regardless of bias.
CnnNews.TV is such an example. This is a clear cut cases of TM infringement. Is it the only one? Of course not. But it is one in which the world’s largest domain registrar is complicit. Knowingly. Willfully. ENDORSED by. Surely we can all agree here on what reality is. GoDaddy.com has hit a new low.
While CNN.me can be debated (and I would vote for not-infringing personally unless usage showed otherwise) there are many clear cut examples which cannot. It is these CLEAR examples with which we can begin to have this difficult debate.
Short domains that can be acronyms, specially 2, 3 and 4 letter domains IMO should always be safe from TM infringement claims unless their usage shows otherwise. Mr. Collins example of ABC clearly illustrates that. In most cases these are simply companies that failed to register the domain for their TM and now want it for free, regardless of the fact that they dropped the ball on their own toes.
This is precisely the reason that companies with the means to do so (GoDaddy etc.) should be the first to step up and take action RESPONSIBLY, although I do fear that if forced to action by public/industry pressure they would in fact over react.
It’s a tough one. But there is a starting point, kill this domain appraisal and cancel the auction.
As Mr. Schwartz has ranted to us about for years (loved the last post Rick) they want our property and they don’t want to pay fair value for it.
Early western settlers founded homesteads on frontier property with blood, sweat and tears just to carve out a better life for themselves and their families. Those back east were happy enough to let them do so knowing that when the time came that those lands would be profitable to own they would simply come and take them. It’s a story as old as the world.
It will happen to us if we don’t learn from the past. We cannot afford to give them any excuses.
Some responsible aftermarket venues automatically refuse to list some unique famous brands (Google, Microsoft, YouTube etc.) and respond to complaints by trademark owners for less well known trademarks. This is not perfect but, it would probably blunt much criticism of our industry. I would encourage GoDaddy to do the same. Any comments on that approach?
Michael
I agree that some marketplaces are much more responsible.
Moniker.com through their live and silent auctions have not sold or listed any of the obvious trademark domains over the years.
Sedo.com has pulled domains out of active auctions that received trademark type complaints.
Afternic has also pulled “trademark” domains out of auction.
Godaddy is especially important, since they are the world’s number 1 registrar and they, as we have discussed before, are a true retail registrar, whose customers average just over 1 domain each.
Godaddy advertises on TV, Sponsors NASCAR, and Indy Cars and get’s a lot of customers who know nothing about domains to its doors.
Maybe a letter from the ICA to Mr.Parsons would have some weight.
“Sedo.com has pulled domains out of active auctions that received trademark type complaints.”.
Not really…
For sale at Sedo:
google.cm Make Offer 23 498,611
www-google.com.mx Make Offer – 9,433
googlee.com.mx Make Offer – 3,119
igoogle.com.mx Make Offer – 2,394
googlel.cl Make Offer – 2,025
mapsgoogle.es 100 EUR 1 1,245
500 more to choose from…
Many other TM’s : CNN , Disnei (y) etc etc
just search…
Rob
I know Sedo.cm has removed some domain that were at auction if someone complained.
I did not mean to say that they scrub there list or stop listings, in absence of a complaint.
Thanks for the info
“I know Sedo.cm has removed ..”
Ja Ja …great typo!.
(agoga.com)
Cheers.
Going off-topic from what’s really being discussed here, Nissan.com was never transferred or taken away from Mr. Nissan. There’s a few details not necessarily showing Mr. Nissan to be the bully’s victim, but that’s a different story.
The challenge here lies in being able to effectively and efficiently address this. Moniker, Sedo etc. have not allowed listing of blatantly obvious TMs on their auctions or so, but that’s probably because they have both the non-human and human resources to deal with all that.
I agree there’s realistically no way to completely stamp this out, given trademark law has a couple of gray areas like non-competing use, parody, etc. If anything, though, one ought to make an arguably reasonable effort to ensure this doesn’t happen.
OTOH, we all know we can’t really “force” our way on others inspite of arguably good intentions. If anything, we can at least show we’re making some effort to address this, even if others think it’s not enough or more can be done.
Last thing we ought to do, though, is possibly give someone an enforceable cause to hold one liable…or worse.
David,
Quite true, my apologies for not checking up on that before posting. I could have sworn it was eventually transferred away in the end. I suppose I “misremembered”. Again my apologies.
“The challenge here lies in being able to effectively and efficiently address this”
David : not really , it took me about 10 seconds to do a search for “foxspor” at Sedo, just do a search for any large TM…
foxspors.com Make Offer – 45,148
foxsporst.com Make Offer – 16,289
foxsportstv.com Make Offer – 255
foxspor.com.ar Make Offer – 227
foxsportsnfl.com Make Offer – 47
foxsportr.com Make Offer – 32
This one it’s an eyeopener :
google.cm
23 offers
1/2Million vists per month.
And they don’t know it?
To err is human, Jeremy. To forgive, divine! 🙂
If I buy a domain name through GoDaddy and they sell it to me,eventhough there is a company that has a trademark and they own the .com and .net, and I buy the .me for that name, then its GoDaddy’s fault not mine! I’m surprised GoDaddy is still in business if this was that serious! As far as domain names and trademarks: Who gives a crap? If its available, buy it through any ICANN registered company and don t worry about it. It ’s all about making money! Big companies f**k everyone to make a profit so it s time to f**k them as well. You want your f**king domain name, it’ll cost you a**hole! First come first serve!Bring it b**ches!
Gee…..thanks a lot Hank. You are taking it from my bottom line too.
A low level GoDaddy newbie employee had to be involved. No educated industry pro would touch this. I do not think GoDaddy upper management are aware or would condone this.
I say this because I have seen GoDaddy reverse course and take positive action when similar problems were brought to their attention. Not to mention iReit’s hard-earned lesson was a message to all.
If anything, GoDaddy need much better screening of tdnam listings. Probably automated (and a human) screening domains before they make it to the auction site.
The first problem with your reasoning in all this is the first amendment.
I can say whatever I want about CNN as long as it’s truthful, and a domain name is just another vehicle for it.
It only violates trademark law if I pretend to be CNN and there’s a risk of confusion. So it’s really the content of the site that determines the issue. If I’m blogging about CNN, then the domain name I choose is just an extension of the blog.
I think this cyber squatting thing should only extend to the precise trademark name.
Let’s take this example… CNNWatchdog.com … dutifully gathers legions of readers every year. In 50 years they have five million readers. The site is for people who want to keep CNN honest. For all intents and purposes this site could be MORE profitable than CNN in fifty years… CNNWatchdog.com is a completely new business in my mind. Nobody mistakes it for CNN because they make it very clear on the website that they are not affiliated with CNN.
The web is a new kind of economy and the laws have to reflect that. It’s an information economy. If I have the foresight to see that there are more people who want to police CNN than CNN viewers, I should have the right to build that business.
So I say there’s no way to to tell if CNN’s trademark has been violated until the content is actually posted. No risk of confusion, no problem.
The second problem with your reasoning is trademark law itself. It’s industry specific. I can launch a company called CNNDogWashing as long as CNN doesn’t already have a product in that industry. So this broad-sweeping view you have of the problem doesn’t address many of the nuances of the law. It’s really a case by case thing. While you chose a good example, you go to far with your reasoning.
The law is pretty simple: if there’s risk of confusion in a specific industry, it violates the law. That means MOST domain names containing CNN don’t violate the law (unless the website uses their colors & logo etc).
Also keep in mind that most domains extensions are global. .com. .TV. There are probably companies with the acronym CNN in other countries, for example. If CNN hasn’t trademarked the name in that country, tough luck. They don’t own the universe.
#1. Godaddy appraisals are basically an automated script that isn’t worth s**t, I just sold a website that godaddy “professionally” appraised and said it was worth $80, the domain was clearing $800-$1200 a month. I sold the website for 10k last week.
#2. Godaddy auctions do include trademarked domains. However the infringement depends on 1). the trademark was filed in the proper category to be consider if an infringement is occuring. For example if a trademark was filed under “print” then someone in a newspaper would have to show credit but on the internet they would not. This is why a trademark holder usually files in multiple categories. 2.) If the holder files in the internet category, category 42, a infringement is only possible if the abuser is using the trademark in a confusing manner or manner in which there is no clear benefit. For example you could use http://www.microsftsucks.com and sell linux software on the site. As long as you could prove that you are using the site in a actual way. If you registered microsofty.com and just had a parked domain with ads all over it, then microsoft could ask you to take the domain down because it causes confusion and the intent is to profit only from the use of a trademarked name.
The true problem arises if say microsoft had no domain name and someone had squatted on http://www.microsoft.com(The domain spelling must be the exact same) if they where actually using the domain in a true manner(selling flowers or something), then it would be a possible victory to the domain holder but not necessarily, they just have a better chance of keeping the domain. Maybe a 50/50 shot versus a 5% shot at best with the other issues.
We the People, during the Dot Com computer era, went to Domain Name companies to protect our usernames and our trademarks and our websites from hackers stealers our work and our indexes, and instead, we found ourselves needing protection from the Domain name companies that ruined our life work…! I don’t know about you, or if your a webmaster or webdesigner or own a company that you worked hard to build, but I AM ANGRY ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO ME AND ALL THE ANGEL888, the ANGEL-888, the ANGEL_888 websites that were designed many years ago, during the birth of the internet to be FREE, meaning
F R E E, FREE=FREE, music school and musician resource tools for Musicians to help one another,,, then these greedy people came along, and used the very first search box from that site, and now today you have search engines because of that FREE program tool that went to the OLGA index, that was built many years ago in the Geocities Sunset Strip Underground, way before yahoo came along OH and the domain name companies…! Hackers came and destroyed the very first Angel 888 site, then yahoo came and tore it down, then domain name comapies came while I was building many other websites, then they started selling my websites out from under me, my trademark name and all… I was not the only one they did this too, the tech that designed most of the weather systems called Radarnet, this happened to him too,,,!, this also happened to many bands and musicians, and ruined their websites and band names becuase of it…!